Door 69

Originally posted by twhitehead
. That is the most parsimonious explanation but you do not have proof. Yet you accept it as fact.[/b]

Kind of like saying that the Big Bang came from nothing or that life came from nonlife even though that is not what we observe in nature? You mean that type of parsimonious explanation?

Originally posted by whodey
Kind of like saying that the Big Bang came from nothing or that life came from nonlife even though that is not what we observe in nature? You mean that type of parsimonious explanation?

I don't know where the big bang came from but if the scientific method says it came from nothing (I am not aware of any such result) then that is what was observed. Life coming from non-life? Yes that was observed in nature or we wouldn't be talking about it in the first place!
The parsimonious explanations we are discussing are the possible methods by which these events took place.
What you are trying to imply with "that is not what we observe in nature" is that you have an observation that contradicts these events. If so lets hear it.

Originally posted by whodey
1. So we may be created by more than one God? Ok, I guess this is a possible scenerio, however, I don't think it changes much in terms of us having a Creator. Pick which God is yours
2. Perhaps God just started off with the lifeless matter and let it evolve on its own? Well of coarse life came about via lifeless matter. I mean, the Bible says that we w ...[text shortened]... l you that this view is in error and problematic for societies that embrace such an ideology.

Even if gods need love, if there were several gods, they could get their lovin' from each other - wouldn't need us.

For 2), I was imagining God starting off the universe with the big bang or some such, and then letting nature take its course. As for your last sentence, I keep imagining a scientist blowing on a rock and hoping against hope for the rock to spring to life. Hilarious.

3. In the Matrix, people do exist, and have free will, but the world they live in is a computer simulation. It's funny how willing you are to go off on a tangent that has nothing to do with my position. Whodey 1, Strawman 0!

Originally posted by whodey
I will conceed that this is a possibility, however, I think it unlikely. I would refer back to the "mirror" arguement that you find so unimpressive. As I said before, we are relational beings, therefore, what our Creator must desire from us is what we are programmed to do. We desire loving relationships, thus, how could God be any different? He desires lo ...[text shortened]... , we would be embracing sin which is simply us choosing what God does not will for us.

So many assumptions!

What if we didn't turn out like the creator wanted? Maybe (s)he values logic over emotion, but didn't quite get the proportions right in us.

To your last paragraph: When everyone sins, doesn't that indicate a design flaw? And another one: What happens in heaven? I bet you think people can't sin, yet still have free will, right?

Originally posted by SwissGambit
[b]Even if gods need love, if there were several gods, they could get their lovin' from each other - wouldn't need us.

God would create something he has no need and/or desire for? Is he stupid you think or does he simply enjoy wasting his time perhaps? I guess these are possibilities, no?

Originally posted by SwissGambit
For 2), I was imagining God starting off the universe with the big bang or some such, and then letting nature take its course. As for your last sentence, I keep imagining a scientist blowing on a rock and hoping against hope for the rock to spring to life. Hilarious.

Don't laugh, it probably is happening now as we speak!

Originally posted by SwissGambit
3. In the Matrix, people do exist, and have free will, but the world they live in is a computer simulation. It's funny how willing you are to go off on a tangent that has nothing to do with my position. Whodey 1, Strawman 0![/b]

Silly me, I am not well informed about the "Matrix". So either the world is real or a computer simulation. What difference then is there to me? Either way the world that I percieve is the one in which I interact. All one needs is a stage in which to perform, who cares then if the stage is real or not real?

Originally posted by SwissGambit
To your last paragraph: When everyone sins, doesn't that indicate a design flaw? And another one: What happens in heaven? I bet you think people can't sin, yet still have free will, right?[/b]

No. A design flaw would necessitate that one be required to sin. Christ proved that this not need be the case. There are ONLY two people who have been born/created who did not have a sin nature. These two people are Adam and Christ. Adam also had the possibility of not sinning because he was not created with a "sin nature". However, those who were born into sin were born with a sin nature because of Adam's fall. So both Adam and Christ had the same option in terms of sinning or avoiding sin altogether. Adam failed and Chrsit succeeded.

Originally posted by whodey
God would create something he has no need and/or desire for? Is he stupid you think or does he simply enjoy wasting his time perhaps? I guess these are possibilities, no?

Try to stay focused here.

The gods created us, but don't require love from us, because they have each other.

What about all the life that's not capable of love? Further, what about life that seems to have no good purpose - why were flies and weeds created? You tell me. Does the creator enjoying wasting his time?

Originally posted by whodey
Don't laugh, it probably is happening now as we speak!

🙄

Originally posted by SwissGambit
[b]Try to stay focused here.

The gods created us, but don't require love from us, because they have each other.

I am staying focused and I continue to ask why the "gods" would create us if they wanted nothing from us assuming, that is, they seek loving relationships: For example, why would I create a robot that did not meet any of my needs or desires?

Originally posted by whodey
Silly me, I am not well informed about the "Matrix". So either the world is real or a computer simulation. What difference then is there to me? Either way the world that I percieve is the one in which I interact. All one needs is a stage in which to perform, who cares then if the stage is real or not real?

The real world could be different from the simulation. Everything we think we know about the big bang and beginning of the universe could be just part of the simulation. Who then knows if the simulation has a creator? Maybe the simulation is just eternal.

Originally posted by whodey
I am staying focused and I continue to ask why the "gods" would create us if they wanted nothing from us assuming, that is, they seek loving relationships: For example, why would I create a robot that did not meet any of my needs or desires?

I'm not going to answer this question until you tell me why God created weeds.

Originally posted by SwissGambit
What about all the life that's not capable of love? Further, what about life that seems to have no good purpose - why were flies and weeds created? You tell me. Does the creator enjoying wasting his time?[/b]

I covered this on another post above.

Originally posted by SwissGambit
I'm not going to answer this question until you tell me why God created weeds.

Genesis 3:17-18 And unto Adam he said, "Because you have hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it; cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow will you eat of it all the days of your life. Thorns also and thistles will it bring forth to thee."

Does this answer your question? Now how about my question?