Door 69

Originally posted by pawnhandler
Creationists believe that God has indeed proven himself -- that creation itself is that proof. If Biblical accounts are true or even partially true, then God proved himself over and over in the past and it's just in the most recent hundred years or so that belief has fizzled out. You want fresh proof for each generation it would seem. Interesting thou ...[text shortened]... eone without forcing it. Why not God? People have their whole lifetimes to come to believe.

It would seem from my interactions on RHP with those of unbelief that what is required is proof of God. Then and ONLY then will they potentially seek him out. However, as you have rightly said God has "proven" himself time and time and time again in the past. He proved himself to the Israelites during the time of Moses with his miracles and such. He proved himself to Adam and Eve before they fell. He proved himself through Christ as people were healed and raised from the dead. He proves himself today as he changes lives and continues to work miracles through those of faith. Yet people continued to loose faith despite this fact. I say this is one of the main reasons God does not continue to seek to "prove" himself. What has proving himself accomplished in terms of people placing their faith in him? Sure, you may know for a certaintly that he exists, however, there still is the obstacle of placing your faith in him. The Devil knows that God exists, but does this save him or cause him to place his faith in God? I think not.

Originally posted by DazzlerUK
If God exists he is necessarily eternal, so must exist outside of time because time had a beginning. A being outside of time would have difficulty interacting with things inside of time (as there is no time for him to interact), and to an eternal being the life of all the universe is just a blink of an eye.

So I highly doubt such a being would care whet ...[text shortened]... tely smaller than itself believed in it. After all, do you care about the behaviour of microbes?

You make a lot of assumptions about things for which we have no concept. For example, you say that a being outside of time would have difficulty interacting with things inside time because there is no time to interact. However, if it is difficult for God or impossible for him to do so, how then did he create the material universe? Why would it be difficult interacting with something that you create? Chances are that since you created it you have little trouble in interacting with it because you are the author and finisher of that creation. If anyone would have the ability to interact with the creation it would stand to reason that the Creator would be the person to do so. Also our existence is but a vapor in the sight of God, however, is the amount of time we exist equivalent to the importance and love he places in each one of us? I say it is not necessarily the case.

Again I challenge the reasoning that says that any being would go to the trouble of creating something that they have no use for or interest.

Originally posted by whodey
You make a lot of assumptions about things for which we have no concept. For example, you say that a being outside of time would have difficulty interacting with things inside time because there is no time to interact. However, if it is difficult for God or impossible for him to do so, how then did he create the material universe? Why would it be difficult ...[text shortened]... t any being would go to the trouble of creating something that they have no use for or interest.

Yes perhaps I do, but Christians make alot of assumptions about things for which we have no concept, like God.

This is of course just my opinion, and I'm looking at it logically. I have had many arguments with Christians and they always end up saying 'Well if the Big Bang created the Universe, what created the Big Bang?' To which I ask 'What created God?'

The answer they give is that God is eternal, did not begin and will never cease to exist. This is fine but you must then assume He exists outside time (for if he exists inside of time, then time is also eternal, and did not need to be started, so no need for God).

It is also true that the Bible contains contradictions and inaccuracies (if you don't agree I'll be happy to point some out), so therefore it cannot be the word of God, as it is not perfect. Without the Bible there is no other evidence for the existence of the Christian God.

So now all you can know is that there is a being that exists outside of time, and that created time. But if there was no time for him to do the creating it would seem impossible for this to be the case. I will admit however, that we know nothing of the nature of outside-time beings, it may well be that it is possible, but who knows.

Logically, the fact that God is outside time and may or may not have the capabilities to create the Universe is the only possible conclusion. I would say it is in fact the Christians that then make incredible asumptions about their God, because to come to any other conclusion is (in my mind) illogical, and to attribute all sorts of personality traits to this 'God' would be an increadible leap of faith (and wishful thinking) that is well over the border of idiocy.

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I of course don't believe that God created the Universe so your argument holds no water with me, so I'll just address this:

Again I challenge the reasoning that says that any being would go to the trouble of creating something that they have no use for or interest.

Well man creates many things he has no use for, just to show he can create. If God made man in his own image would it not stand to reason that God would be capable of the same?

Originally posted by DazzlerUK
The answer they give is that God is eternal, did not begin and will never cease to exist. This is fine but you must then assume He exists outside time (for if he exists inside of time, then time is also eternal, and did not need to be started, so no need for God).

Christ said that he was the Alpha and the Omega or the beginning and the end. It stands to reason he is referring to the beginning ot time and the end of time. Everything in the material universe had a begninning and MUST have a beginning based on the definition of time which measures point A to point B. I see no problem with conceeding that the demension God came from does not consist of matter, thus, such a demension is without a point of reference for us to compare with the material universe in which we live. Once you no longer have a point of referece in describing something you no longer have the ability to comprehend it. All arguments then are futile without such a point of reference.

Originally posted by DazzlerUK
Well man creates many things he has no use for, just to show he can create. If God made man in his own image would it not stand to reason that God would be capable of the same?[/b]

Everything man creates has a reason for him creating them. Granted, these reasons are often flawed and man may find out that he has no use for what he thought he could use his creation for. The arguement then becomes could God not also make a similar mistake. I suppose you could argue that God made the mistake by creating man for relationship with him but then have it blow up in his face when man later rejected him, however, what of free will? Is free will a mistake? Did God make a mistake in giving you free will? If so, perhaps you want your free will stripped from you and to become his puppet? Would you like that?

Originally posted by whodey
Christ said that he was the Alpha and the Omega or the beginning and the end. It stands to reason he is referring to the beginning ot time and the end of time. Everything in the material universe had a begninning and MUST have a beginning based on the definition of time which measures point A to point B. I see no problem with conceeding that the demension ...[text shortened]... the ability to comprehend it. All arguments then are futile without such a point of reference.

Well if you admit you have no ability to comprehend God, why do you worship Him? I already pointed out how the Bible is flawed and so not the word of God, so why do you base your life around something you cannot comprehend?


Originally posted by whodey
Everything man creates has a reason for him creating them. Granted, these reasons are often flawed and man may find out that he has no use for what he thought he could use his creation for. The arguement then becomes could God not also make a similar mistake. I suppose you could argue that God made the mistake by creating man for relationship with him but then have it blow up in his face when man later rejected him, however, what of free will? Is free will a mistake? Did God make a mistake in giving you free will? If so, perhaps you want your free will stripped from you and to become his puppet? Would you like that?

First of all, if you want to use the Bible in an argument then please respond to my point about the Bible being imperfect, until then I will ignore it as it's not an accurate source. Secondly, I don't believe in God so your question is pointless, as I don't believe God gave me free will, and I don't believe he can strip it from me.
If God knows everything then nothing blew up in his face for he already knew that man would reject him. He then also knew that man would cause mass suffering, yet he did nothing. If you want to bring up free will then I will bring up the fact that God created suffering, which is a very loving thing to do.

Originally posted by DazzlerUK
[b]Well if you admit you have no ability to comprehend God, why do you worship Him? I already pointed out how the Bible is flawed and so not the word of God, so why do you base your life around something you cannot comprehend?

Just because I am unable to fully comprehend God in no way means that I am unable to relate to him in a loving way. One can be intimate without being fully understood, or perhaps you do not know women that well? Can anyone understand them?

As for the Biblical flaws, what are you referring to?

Originally posted by DazzlerUK
First of all, if you want to use the Bible in an argument then please respond to my point about the Bible being imperfect, until then I will ignore it as it's not an accurate source. Secondly, I don't believe in God so your question is pointless, as I don't believe God gave me free will, and I don't believe he can strip it from me.
If God knows everything t ...[text shortened]... hen I will bring up the fact that God created suffering, which is a very loving thing to do.[/b]

So God created suffering? You may as well say that God created sin because sin causes suffering. The problem is, is that sin is merely deviating from the will of God. Therefore, nothing was created, rather, it is simply a deviation from God's will. Just because there are terms for words does not mean that those terms actually exist. For example, darkness does not exist, rather, it is simply an expression of the absence of light. Light we can study, darkness we cannot. Also, coldness does not exist, rather, it is merely an expression of a lack of heat etc. We can only measure heat not coldness. Likewise, sin is merely the absence of God's love in ones heart. After all, God is love and if you do his will you will abide in his perfect love.