01 Feb 08
Originally posted by EcstremeVenomYou (and I'm thinking perhaps many others in this thread, as they've not yet pointed this out) are making an error here.
do you not think that what goes on so long ago may be very hard to determine w/ 100% efficiency? why cant we just not teach creationism or evolution (also the big bang) and just teach what we know to be going on NOW and not claim we know what happened then? nobody would argue over the issue this way either
The point of science is not to explain the past. The fact that we often gain an understanding of how things came to be as a result of studying science is a wonderful side benefit--but it is something that just happens, it's not the *point* of doing science.
The point of doing science is to make testable, reliable predictions. This is how you can easily tell if you're dealing with science or not. Is astrology science? Does it allow you to make reliable, testable predictions? No, so it's not science. Does evolution theory allow one to make predictions? Yes--if you grab a Petri dish, some bacteria, and a toxin you will find evolution theory lets you make some very interesting predictions. So it's science.
Does creationism / intelligent design allow one to make testable, reliable predictions? If yes--to the same standard as other accepted scientific theories--then we should accept it as a theory. It does not, however, so we should not.
Check out my essays on this (see the science section): http://severoon.googlepages.com/home. Make sure you cite me as a source if you use anything for your paper! (Trust me--your teacher WILL google your essay and my content will pop up...so if you plaigerize you will get caught--I did post those essays using Google Page Creator, after all.)
01 Feb 08
Originally posted by severoonty for the site. also about predictions, one could make the argument of bible prophesies, its not testible but one could say it is happening. on the other hand though, one could say that you could fit those prophecies into anything.
You (and I'm thinking perhaps many others in this thread, as they've not yet pointed this out) are making an error here.
The point of science is not to explain the past. The fact that we often gain an understanding of how things came to be as a result of studying science is a wonderful side benefit--but it is something that just happens, it's not the *po ...[text shortened]... gerize you will get caught--I did post those essays using Google Page Creator, after all.)
01 Feb 08
Originally posted by scottishinnzThat is the way it has to work, it has to start with non-life and
That's not the way that evolution works though. Abiogenesis was likely an evolutionary process of sorts and would ot have worked way either.
You know all this though Kelly.
move into life and over come all the odds to get where we are now.
I don't believe that is possible given the odds. I know you want to
say it didn't have to over come the odds all at once, but one little
step at a time, but even there you are assuming you can get here
from there doing that, and I don't buy that.
Kelly
01 Feb 08
Originally posted by KellyJayI never understood how people can not "buy that" when it's one of the simplest concepts to understand in all of science. Maybe some people are just wilfully idiotic when it comes to evolution?
That is the way it has to work, it has to start with non-life and
move into life and over come all the odds to get where we are now.
I don't believe that is possible given the odds. I know you want to
say it didn't have to over come the odds all at once, but one little
step at a time, but even there you are assuming you can get here
from there doing that, and I don't buy that.
Kelly
I had two shuffled decks of cards, I handed them to the audience to shuffle then managed to turn over the top 8 cards and they were the aces from both decks!!! Overcoming the odds yes?
Well, if what I actually did was turn over every card, rip it up if it wasn't an ace, keep it if it was an ace, then after 74 cards I finally have all 8 aces, it's not impressive at all, no 'odds' have been 'overcome'.
01 Feb 08
Originally posted by EcstremeVenomThe key here is to realize that when I talk about predictions made by scientific theories, these are not vague. They're well defined, and they must be fully testable and found to be reliable over a long period of time in a great many circumstances within the problem domain under study.
ty for the site. also about predictions, one could make the argument of bible prophesies, its not testible but one could say it is happening. on the other hand though, one could say that you could fit those prophecies into anything.
In fact, the scientific method requires the scientist that created the hypothesis to poke as many holes in it as possible (this is called "doing an experiment"😉. The default state of a scientist is to be skeptical--not to "have faith".
Biblical prophecies don't exactly meet the same standard.
01 Feb 08
1 edit
Originally posted by doodinthemoodThe trouble with the cards is you don't get to keep the good ones
I never understood how people can not "buy that" when it's one of the simplest concepts to understand in all of science. Maybe some people are just wilfully idiotic when it comes to evolution?
I had two shuffled decks of cards, I handed them to the audience to shuffle then managed to turn over the top 8 cards and they were the aces from both decks!! I finally have all 8 aces, it's not impressive at all, no 'odds' have been 'overcome'.
and not the bad, you also don't get unlimited time to shuffle them
and get it right either. Even the start of evolution would have had to
of had taken place in a limited window of time, if the stories we have
heard about universe were true. The conditions had to be just right,
not to hot or to cold, all the proper material would have had to been
there and not only that but in the right place, at the right time, and in
the right amounts, so they can bind together in the right way, and so
on! Any change in the environment for producing the results you seek
would be lost, how much time do you think was available and where
do you get your numbers from? The chain of 'proper conditions and
material’ could be broken at any point; there may not be a do over,
because when proper chemicals combine they may do so and ruin what
was needed, or any number of other odds and ends would or could
break this so called event. You really have to believe big time in
the evolutionary fairy tale to accept everything that had to be just
perfect to get it to start working let alone continue on and flourish
afterwards to get the variety of life we see today.
Kelly
01 Feb 08
Originally posted by KellyJayGo ahead and do the math. If you have not yet done it, then you cannot make claims supposedly based on the results.
We can do the math, look at a life form find the number of things
that had to happen to get just one to pop up from nothing.
Kelly
By the way, do you actually know what 'had to happen' just to get one to 'pop up from nothing'?
01 Feb 08
2 edits
Originally posted by KellyJayA few billion years is a 'limited time'? I guess so.
Even the start of evolution would have had to of had taken place in a limited window of time, if the stories we have heard about universe were true.
The conditions had to be just right, not to hot or to cold,
Thats a bit vague. How exact did they need to be? Can you for example give the temperature range within which it was possible?
Can you also give us the approximate proportion of the universe which lies within said temperature range.
This reminds me of another thread where someone claimed that the tilt of the earths axis was 'just right' for life and that this was evidence for Intelligent Design. Of course he avoided mentioning that since the earths axis wobbles over time without life dying off, his 'just right' is actually a range of at least 10 degrees - and even so, he did not present any reason to believe that even outside that range would be inhospitable for life. Since 10 degrees is more than 10% of the possible tilts, there is a 1 in 10 chance that a planet will have a tilt within the earths range. So there probably are over a billion such planets in our galaxy.
01 Feb 08
Originally posted by KellyJayA deep sea hydrothermal vent seems about as hospitable as the moon. At a mile and a half from the surface, the ocean is utterly dark — the sun never reaches this deep.
The conditions had to be just right, not to hot or to cold, all the proper material would have had to been there and not only that but in the right place, at the right time, and in the right amounts, so they can bind together in the right way, and so on! Everything had to be just perfect to get it to start working let alone continue on and flourish afterwards to get the variety of life we see today.
Kelly
Toxic fluids spew from chimney-like structures. The pressure is so intense that it would crush a human's lungs instantly. The water is, at turns, hotter than boiling and nearly freezing. It's not the kind of place where you'd imagine life surviving.
And yet animals like the giant tubeworm don't just survive, they thrive in these hydrothermal vents.
Thirty years ago, when scientists discovered tubeworms in deep sea vents, they were flabbergasted. They didn't understand how life in the dark, deep sea was possible. Without sunlight, there could be no plants and no way to create food using photosynthesis.
What's more, tubeworms had no mouth and no digestive system. They couldn't eat even if there was food! By scientific reasoning, tubeworms weren't supposed to exist. And yet they did!
So how do tubeworms get their food? Their survival depends on a symbiotic relationship with the billions of bacteria that live inside them. These bacteria convert the chemicals that come from the hydrothermal vents into food for the worm. This chemical-based food making process is called chemosynthesis.
Tubeworms aren't the only animals that live in deep sea vents. Colonies of large brown mussels and giant clams sit on the bottom. Spider-like crabs crawl all over the vent, eating anything they can scavenge. Tangles of soft-bodied spaghetti worms drape over rocks. Swarms of tiny blind shrimp hover near the chimneys.
There are even octopi and fish. And then there are organisms you can't see without magnification. Scientists are discovering new creatures in the deep sea vents every few weeks. They have identified more than 500 organisms so far.
Taken from: http://school.discoveryeducation.com/schooladventures/planetocean/tubeworm.html
It seems that life-enabling conditions don't have to be 'just perfect' after all.
01 Feb 08
Originally posted by KellyJayYou DO if we're still talking about evolution. That's the whole point.
The trouble with the cards is you don't get to keep the good ones
and not the bad,
Now, unless you got better qualifications than me on this subject I suggest you sit down and let the grown ups talk.
01 Feb 08
Originally posted by twhiteheadNo one knows, it is just a theory or guess, and it isn't one I believe in
Go ahead and do the math. If you have not yet done it, then you cannot make claims supposedly based on the results.
By the way, do you actually know what 'had to happen' just to get one to 'pop up from nothing'?
so if you care to elaborate please do.
Kelly