Eternal suffering? Or eternal death?

Originally posted by Tom Wolsey
Case in point. Thank you.

Oh, and don't chalk up another internet 'win' ... "Hey guys, we did it! We ran another one off!" It's not that I feel challenged or victimized. It's old and dirty here. The rest of the internet has moved on. There are many places where lively, interesting conversation goes on.

"So why'd you come here in the first pl ...[text shortened]... opriate joke, this time about alcoholics!" they say, as he walks out through the swinging doors.

Hey man, don't be like that . We love you despite whatever.
I tried to answer to this op on another thread. look it up. You'll get there.

I can feel you feel. Which is good.
Either or it's one hell of an act.
C'mon man this is a debating forum, you can't say that you (re)introduction to this site was completely negative.
Heck , a few posters welcomed you with open arms

Originally posted by Tom Wolsey
There are many places where lively, interesting conversation goes on.

Be that as it may, but I think you'd be better off looking for a halfway house for lumbering vanities somewhere. 😉

Originally posted by Tom Wolsey
This "spirituality" forum is pretty cynical and humorless. Not complaining but it explains why there are roughly half a dozen regular posters left.

Perhaps all of the others have also forgotten their log-in passwords but find the place too dreary to be bothered to concoct a new identity just to moan about the place and how sad it all is and how they wish they were somewhere else.

Originally posted by Tom Wolsey
Now that I've done that, I wish you all the best and I'll finish my drink and head out. Just not my kind of saloon.

See you in your next incarnation 😉

Originally posted by divegeester
Tom, welcome to the forum. If you are a new member (and not someone returning under other name, which happens) then you find it quite exciting** in here at times. Seriously, welcome.

By "argument" I meant a reasonably concise exegesis of those and the other scriptures which went some way to overcoming the obvious moral and even logical incoherence of ...[text shortened]... ".

In the meantime, I'll probably just side with you on the annihilation POV.

**combative

I used to be an annihilation believer but I may be changing my mind to something else which would be considered quite strange and bring me into bad odour with other posters such as @sonship, who's ears I've boxed relentlessly for a few years for holding what I call "strange beliefs".

My ears don't feel "boxed".

Careful not to dislocate your shoulder patting yourself on the back there.

Originally posted by Tom Wolsey
This "spirituality" forum is pretty cynical and humorless. Not complaining but it explains why there are roughly half a dozen regular posters left.

Yeah. That's the feel this place gives me. And I'm sure it's the feel it gives anyone who dares step in here, hoping for some fresh, productive repartee.

Cynical and humorless, yeah.

That is mainly the reason I also left.

You will learn that people like dive cannot be pleased - cynical and humorless is his home language.

But I have had some great arguments, mainly with FMF, sonhouse and twhitehead (is he still around?) Atheists all, but delightfully so.

Allow me to make some quick commenst - firstly (and I seriously haven't found it in 12 pages) the main arguments for ET. As FMF rightly said, a scripture verse WITHOUT comment is not an argument, because people interpret scripture based on their POV.

There are two main arguments used for ET, as follows:

1. God made man to be immortal, that is, when he breathed in him the breath of life, he became an eternally living soul which cannot be killed or extinguished. Clearly, god's First Prize would have been to have all men worship him and then live with him in love and harmony for ever and ever. But when you get a situation that is not the one that you want (see item 2 below) you are stuck with this immortal being (mankind) that you have to park somewhere. Because the future of eternity only consists of two places, you have to send them to one of the two to live out the rest of their days (metaphorically speaking, of course, because there IS no end! ). That is why people go to hell.

2. The main reason that I have heard and read about is this: "God does NOT send you to hell, YOU send yourself there by not accepting the Free Gift that he so graciously offers you". The example is used of a criminal that, being guilty and sent to serve out his sentence in jail, will remain in jail even if somebody offers to pay for his debt, if said criminal REFUSES to accept that the debt has been paid and choses to rather stay put. Free will, and all that. God cannot release him from jail, even though he is Just, and Merciful and all that, against his will.

Now, I will not bother to refute these two arguments, I am sure you can have a stab at it yourself. (If I am not wrong, sonship and I have had this discussion also some, oh, five or six years ago. As always, inconclusive,)

But hey, don't go yet. Maybe we can find a useful topic to discuss.

One that intrigues me, and which is similar to your position as I understand it, is why some peope (like FMF, for example) see all the flaws in mainline Christianity and then throw out the whole bathroom with a room full of babies. Others, however, like (ahem!) me perhaps, have seen the ridiculous parts of Christian doctrines (like ET, six-day creation, Noah's flood, etc etc) and just jettisoned them, without leaving the core, which is infinitely attractive, encouraging and wonderful.

Originally posted by CalJust
Cynical and humorless, yeah.

That is mainly the reason I also left.

You will learn that people like dive cannot be pleased - cynical and humorless is his home language.

But I have had some great arguments, mainly with FMF, sonhouse and twhitehead (is he still around?) Atheists all, but delightfully so.

Allow me to make some quick commenst - firs ...[text shortened]... If I am not wrong, sonship and I have had this discussion also some, oh, five or six years ago.)

Some on this forum are making the argument that Jesus never offered 'heaven' as a free gift. The apostles may have, or other writers in the Bible may have, but not Jesus.

Instead, the idea of 'proving' yourself worthy by NOT committing sin....at all...is what they claim Jesus desires.

Did Jesus ever say, in His own words, that His sacrifice on the cross was a "free gift"? That belief in Him is enough?

I'm not sure.

Originally posted by CalJust
Cynical and humorless, yeah.

That is mainly the reason I also left.

You will learn that people like dive cannot be pleased - cynical and humorless is his home language.

But I have had some great arguments, mainly with FMF, sonhouse and twhitehead (is he still around?) Atheists all, but delightfully so.

Allow me to make some quick commenst - firs ...[text shortened]... soned them, without leaving the core, which is infinitely attractive, encouraging and wonderful.

Do you think that when you get rid of scripture you're no different than when an Atheist does it, out side you keep some and they don't?

Originally posted by chaney3
Some on this forum are making the argument that Jesus never offered 'heaven' as a free gift. The apostles may have, or other writers in the Bible may have, but not Jesus.

Instead, the idea of 'proving' yourself worthy by NOT committing sin....at all...is what they claim Jesus desires.

Did Jesus ever say, in His own words, that His sacrifice on the cross was a "free gift"? That belief in Him is enough?

I'm not sure.

See my responses to you on the Sumydid thread. You don't seem to fully understand what Rajk999 and I have been saying.

That belief in Him is enough

When Jesus spoke of "belief in Him" while He walked the Earth it was:
1) Belief that He was speaking the will of God
2) Belief in those words in and of themselves.
Belief that results in not only following His word, but KEEPing His word.

He was not speaking of believing in His "atoning sacrifice".

Originally posted by KellyJay
Do you think that when you get rid of scripture you're no different than when an Atheist does it, out side you keep some and they don't?

I have no problem in you (or anyone else, for that matter) believing whatever you do "based on the Bible", e.g. six days, kangeroos getting to and from the ark, or whatever.

The only thing that I would like to do is help those people that have a problem with those verses understand that it is NOT an essential part of Christianity, and that you don't have to throw away all science to be a Christian. You also don't have to believe that the only way to interpret the Bible is in the most basic, literal, word for word way, because God has left us many other witnesses.

Originally posted by CalJust
I have no problem in you (or anyone else, for that matter) believing whatever you do "based on the Bible", e.g. six days, kangeroos getting to and from the ark, or whatever.

The only thing that I would like to do is help those people that have a problem with those verses understand that it is NOT an essential part of Christianity, and that you don't have ...[text shortened]... is in the most basic, literal, word for word way, because God has left us many other witnesses.

We agree I also don't think that there will be a test for how much time did God take to make the universe. I do believe it makes more sense as written verses picking and choosing what I like and don't like.

Originally posted by CalJust
One that intrigues me, and which is similar to your position as I understand it, is why some peope (like FMF, for example) see all the flaws in mainline Christianity and then throw out the whole bathroom with a room full of babies.

What "babies" have I thrown out? I simply lost my faith and my belief that the Bible credibly substantiates the claims that Christians make about the meaning of Jesus' life and the nature of "God" and other matters pertaining to the supernatural. I see no problem or any disadvantage whatsoever from what happened to me. You do, though. So what is it? Tell me about these "babies". 😉

Originally posted by sonship
My ears don't feel "boxed". Careful not to dislocate your shoulder patting yourself on the back there.

We you certainly made yourself look silly over your recent claim and challenge that you never said those strange things, which I then went and found for you and which you then spent several days desperately avoiding. You still haven't come back to all the challenges about you revolting claim "the lost will glorify him in their woe". You just dipucked and dived and hoped it would all go away as you always do when represented with the strange stuff you've posted in the past.

Yes, I'd say your ears were well land truly boxed on that occiasion at least.

Originally posted by CalJust
Cynical and humorless, yeah. That is mainly the reason I also left.

And yet here you are...

Originally posted by chaney3
Some on this forum are making the argument that Jesus never offered 'heaven' as a free gift. The apostles may have, or other writers in the Bible may have, but not Jesus.

Instead, the idea of 'proving' yourself worthy by NOT committing sin....at all...is what they claim Jesus desires.

Did Jesus ever say, in His own words, that His sacrifice on the cross was a "free gift"? That belief in Him is enough?

I'm not sure.

Perhaps if you present an alternative gospel and one which is coherent with the entirety of scripture and not just the bits you have gleaned from a couple of other posters and who's bandwagon you have jumped on, then perhaps you will have something worth discussing.