21 Nov 11
Originally posted by pete3246The most important part was the ressurrection, not the torture.
I think this is a great topic...I have asked this question and never really got a reasonable answer. If JC was showing us how it should be done....why didnt he go thru a real torture,,,,getting smacked around for a couple days and then getting killed isn't so bad when you see some of the torture that goes on in this world. I mean maybe if he had been tort ...[text shortened]... ould resume his place as God....it hardly seems like a blink of an eye for an eternal being....
21 Nov 11
Originally posted by pete3246"Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life.
yes...but the question is about the reason for the torture....or how the dieing cured the sins
For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord." -- Romans 5:18-21, KJV
Much of the Gospel (or, "Good News" ) of the New Testament is focused in Romans. The answers you seek are there to be found.
22 Nov 11
Originally posted by 667joeIt all boils down to one very important, but simple concept.
Can some one explain to me how God allowing his only begotten son to be tortured to death absolves believers of their sins? What is the connection? Is God not bright enough to have been able to figure out a less sadistic way to accomplish the same task?
Do you believe God?
22 Nov 11
Originally posted by twhiteheadOdd arguments.
Yours is an explanation I have not heard before.
So when God 'sacrificed' Jesus, he was demonstrating love for himself? For us?
Why is sacrifice a demonstration of love and devotion? Why do you think it is true of all relationships?
Is it still a demonstration of love and devotion when it doesn't benefit the person being loved? eg, am I showing lov ...[text shortened]... name? What if I chop off one of my fingers, would that count as love and devotion to someone?
I'm caught off-guard by you asking how sacrifice is necessary at all in a loving relationship.
I think what I said stands on its own merit. A loving relationship involves self-sacrifice--and on a fairly regular basis.
Which leads to your hypothetical of sacrificing a chicken for your wife. First of all, I was talking about self-sacrifice. In the case of Christ, it was actual bona fide, literal self-sacrifice. But in our case, it involves the kind of self-sacrifice defined as giving up something very important to you, for the sake of demonstrating love for another. God didn't ask that a simple chicken be sacrificed. He said the people must sacrifice the very best, most prized animals of their flocks.... or a portion of their cherished crops and grains.
In modern-day terms, the tithe is used in similar fashion, as is the act of fasting, or, even the act of giving up something you really enjoy for an entire month.
22 Nov 11
Originally posted by 667joeMankind originally sinned against God by disobediance. God told man
I could understand sacrificing by making an organ donation to save a life, or stepping in front of an oncoming projectile to save a family member or friend, but I don't grasp how Jesus saved humanity by being nailed to a cross.
the punishment for the sin of disobedence was death, probably in an
effort to discourage any disobedience. But man sinned anyway and God
is still bound by His word even though He has other plans for mankind.
So God must allow man to die. But God wants an eternal relationship
with mankind and His plans seems to have been destroyed by Satan's
deception to mankind. What is God to do now?
God apparently came up with an idea to pay the price of death for man's
sin by giving His own blood by His death for man, therefore, paying the
penalty of death that man owed for his disobedience. (The life of man
depends on his blood.) Now, how is God to do this since He is eternal
and cannot die like man?
This is where Jesus, the God-man comes in. Jesus, being fully God and
fully man could die on the cross, giving up His life's blood, to pay the
price of sin that mankind owes to satisfy God's justice. Jesus proved He
was fully man by dying on the cross and proved He was fully God by
returning to life after three days and nights like He said He would and
then ascending into heaven.
Now, the living Jesus, who is still the God-man, minus the blood, can
forgive anyone that He chooses since His sacrifice of His blood is an
eternal sacrifice because He is the eternal God. He has decided to
forgive anyone that will believe and trust in Him for their salvation.
So you might look at it like someone donating blood to save your life.
22 Nov 11
So far most posters have focused on the redemptive aspect of Christ's death. There is also a terminative aspect of His death.
Fallen man was infested with a foreign element like a parasite. It renders him so damaged that he cannot be refined or improved. That element has to be killed, tyerminated.
The death of Christ also furnished the believer with the killing power which terminates that evil foriegn element. Forgiveness is one matter. But the internal power to kill off germs is another.
"I am crucified with Christ ..." says Paul. In the Holy Spirit is not only the forgiveness of God for the guilt of sin. There is killing off power of the cross of Jesus to terminate the fallen Adam life so man can live by the new divine nature.
22 Nov 11
Originally posted by RJHindsAdmit it! Deep down you don't really believe this absurd explanation.
Mankind originally sinned against God by disobediance. God told man
the punishment for the sin of disobedence was death, probably in an
effort to discourage any disobedience. But man sinned anyway and God
is still bound by His word even though He has other plans for mankind.
So God must allow man to die. But God wants an eternal relationship
with man ...[text shortened]... r their salvation.
So you might look at it like someone donating blood to save your life.
22 Nov 11
Originally posted by karoly aczelMake that The Passion of Christ? I do not think any real Christian would have anything to do with that other movie.
In my way of thinking , (I'm assuming this story is true, which it may not be, but let's just say it is), "God" was showing us how tuff his "Son" was, how he could get tortured to the point of near death and still not convert. "God" showed us that JC was so tuff that he would take everything they could dish up and still not 'give God up'.
JC is suppo ...[text shortened]... t 'o' nine tails, let alone all the other punishments he was subject to.
22 Nov 11
2 edits
Originally posted by RJHindsAnother way to look at it -- Jesus wasn't just satisfying God's need for blood - he was satisfying man's "need" for blood.
Mankind originally sinned against God by disobediance. God told man
the punishment for the sin of disobedence was death, probably in an
effort to discourage any disobedience. But man sinned anyway and God
is still bound by His word even though He has other plans for mankind.
So God must allow man to die. But God wants an eternal relationship
with man r their salvation.
So you might look at it like someone donating blood to save your life.
One of the big things that causes so much terrible violence and division is that "need for vengeance" that people feel when they've been wronged by someone. By itself, this "need for vengeance" is actually a good thing - when an injustice has been done, it's an expression of a desire to "make things right". The courts and the prisons serve very good purposes.
But, usually, instead of seeking to merely "make things rights", the victim just carries out a second act of injustice (often lashing out at a totally innocent third party). The victim of that injustice then commits a third injustice against someone else. And so it goes. This sort of thing eventually can rip communities, nations, and even the entire world into pieces.
Jesus offers another way. Whenever anyone is seeking "revenge" against someone else, Jesus can step into every fray and say that he will be the victim instead. Let all that hatred and anger and bitterness - that "need for blood" - be spent upon Jesus on the cross. Then people will be free to forgive.
22 Nov 11
Originally posted by MelanerpesSo we're supposed to hate Jesus now?
Another way to look at it -- Jesus wasn't just satisfying God's need for blood - he was satisfying man's "need" for blood.
One of the big things that causes so much terrible violence and division is that "need for vengeance" that people feel when they've been wronged by someone. By itself, this "need for vengeance" is actually a good thing - when an in ...[text shortened]... ood" - be spent upon Jesus on the cross. Then people will be free to forgive.
22 Nov 11
3 edits
Originally posted by 667joe
Can some one explain to me how God allowing his only begotten son to be tortured to death absolves believers of their sins? What is the connection? Is God not bright enough to have been able to figure out a less sadistic way to accomplish the same task?
Can some one explain to me how God allowing his only begotten son to be tortured to death absolves believers of their sins? What is the connection? Is God not bright enough to have been able to figure out a less sadistic way to accomplish the same task?
Can you appreciate that you asking for a brief discussion about something which 2,000 + years of contemplation from many capable minds still leaves much to explore ?
Can you at least appreciate that before demanding in 50 words or less an explanation of God's plan of redemption ?
I mean Augustine's "City of God" or John Calvin's "Institutes of the Christian Religion" or J N Darby's five volume"Synopsis of the Bible" did not presume to be the last word on God's salvation. Please don't think a Internet discussion will clear it all up in a few posts.
With this understanding of the profundity of the subject matter involved, I'd be happy to contribute some thoughts to help if I can.
22 Nov 11
Originally posted by AThousandYoungNo. Jesus wants everyone to forgive. But he knows that this often doesn't happen.
So we're supposed to hate Jesus now?
Imagine two people engaged in an intense quarrel -- one of those quarrels where you know it'll end up with someone on the ground with a couple of pieces gone.
Now imagine Jesus sees this and calmly steps in between them - and absorbs each person's blows - all of them - until Jesus is the one "with a couple of pieces gone".
Jesus here is sacrificing his life so that the two fighters can forgive each other.