20 May 06
Originally posted by Vladamir no1The context is not important here; if you won't accept an argument by contradiction in this context on the basis you give (as I understand it), then it would be inconsistent to agree with this method in other circumstances.
In another context you and Dr Scribbles would have my full agreement but not in this context, so we'll agree to dis agree ................
21 May 06
Originally posted by DoctorScribblesI absolutely and unreservedly agree with you 100%. Spot on. I'm not talking about blind faith though but just little ol' simple faith (aka trust , experimenting , risk taking , learning etc etc etc)
"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect had intended for us to forgo their use."
Was Galileo wrong? Did God intend for us to not use our intellectual capacities?
If we come to one conclusion via reason and a competing conclusion via blind faith, do you think God intends for us to reject what our reason tells us? Are we making the most of God's gifts to us when we do this?
21 May 06
Originally posted by knightmeisterNo atheist denies engaging in these things. He simply doesn't choose to denote them by the term faith.
I absolutely and unreservedly agree with you 100%. Spot on. I'm not talking about blind faith though but just little ol' simple faith (aka trust , experimenting , risk taking , learning etc etc etc)
22 May 06
Originally posted by knightmeisterIf 'faith' just means belief justified inductively or abductively, then us atheists don't have a problem with faith. If 'faith' means belief despite an absence of evidence, or belief in the face of substantial evidence to the contrary, then faith is antithetical to reason. The problem with you theists is that you commonly equivocate between these two very different notions (witness KellyJay).
We all exercise faith all the time. I show faith in my mechanic (that he knows what he is doing) . I takes risks (or leaps of faith) in trusting people on instinct. A manager keeps faith with a player in his team. A depressed man holds on to faith that life is worth living , even against his feelings or how things seem at the time. I get to find out th ...[text shortened]... itating habit but I like it for the time being so Get used to it--oooops there I go again...)
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22 May 06
Originally posted by bbarrHere's an equivocation:
If 'faith' just means belief justified inductively or abductively, then us atheists don't have a problem with faith. If 'faith' means belief despite an absence of evidence, or belief in the face of substantial evidence to the contrary, then faith is antithetical to reason. The problem with you theists is that you commonly equivocate between these two very different notions (witness KellyJay).
A priest told a group of students at our college, that I "cannot be reasoned with because I only believe in the rational".
Let me paraphrase, "I cannot be reasoned with because I only believe in the reasonable". There were just so many mistakes in his comment, I just didn't know where to begin. I don't think it would make reasonable discourse to speak unreasonably.
So, depending on your definition of faith, would you classify logic or reason as a faith?
Theists tend to regard logic as a system of faith that is not full-proof whereas atheists do not.
22 May 06
Originally posted by bbarrDo you not think that there are times when what 'seems' reasonable at the time is not the thing that ought to be followed. There are also times when the evidence seems overwhelming for something and other times when it seems very distant. It is in these times when we need faith to hold on to truths we know to be true even though everything else seems to conspire to make it seem unlikely. There is also the issue of what appears convincing evidence to one may not be to another.
If 'faith' just means belief justified inductively or abductively, then us atheists don't have a problem with faith. If 'faith' means belief despite an absence of evidence, or belief in the face of substantial evidence to the contrary, then faith is antithetical to reason. The problem with you theists is that you commonly equivocate between these two very different notions (witness KellyJay).
CS LEWIS said that every Christian has to accept there will be times when God seems quite unlikely and that every atheist will have times when God seems likely. Without faith we can have our beliefs blown about like the wind by our moods , events etc
22 May 06
2 edits
Originally posted by knightmeisterDo you not think that there are times when what 'seems' reasonable at the time is not the thing that ought to be followed.
I overwhelmingly believe just those propositions that I take myself to have good reasons for, and to perform those actions that I take to be reasonable (all things considered). In general, I think people ought to do that which seems to them, all things considered, the most reasonable course of action. But, of course, some people don't deliberate well, or value the wrong sorts of things, or have false beliefs, or suffer from weakness of will. In such cases it is surely possible that what one ought to do is not that which seems to one as reasonable. Although members of Opus Dei find it reasonable to torture themselves and to hunt academics, they ought not do so. They labor under a bevy of false metaphysical assumptions.
There are also times when the evidence seems overwhelming for something and other times when it seems very distant.
Yes, sometimes you simply don't have very much evidence. The best thing to do in such circumstances is to withold belief.
It is in these times when we need faith to hold on to truths we know to be true even though everything else seems to conspire to make it seem unlikely.
No. If you know P, then, minimally, you are justified in believing that P. But it is a necessary condition on being justified in believing that P that you don't have cognitive access to evidence for the falsity of P that, when all the evidence relating to P is considered, makes P unlikely.
There is also the issue of what appears convincing evidence to one may not be to another.
Yes, so? Sometimes people believe P despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary. Sometimes people believe P despite the complete absence of evidence for P. Sometimes people mistakenly take E as evidence for P. Sometimes people correctly take E as evidence for P, but then believe P solely on the basis of E even though E, by itself, carries very little evidentiary weight.
The moral: People aren't always rational.
CS LEWIS said that every Christian has to accept there will be times when God seems quite unlikely and that every atheist will have times when God seems likely.
C.S. Lewis should have stuck to writing children's novels.
Without faith we can have our beliefs blown about like the wind by our moods , events etc
And, again, if 'faith' simply means inductive or abductive belief, then I completely agree. If you take it to mean anything more than this, then I disagree that the remainder is necessary for having a relatively stable set of beliefs.
25 May 06
Originally posted by DoctorScribblesYou don't think the God who created the universe and started the
I'm working on earthing an interesting one in the Age of the Universe thread. So far, KellyJ appears to believe that humans were designed to both reproduce and live forever. Any inconsistency that fails to acknowledge the implications of finite resources coupled with infinite exponential growth is an interesting one.
process can at will, deal with the issues that would arise?
Kelly
25 May 06
Originally posted by bbarrSo what do you think about the idea of faith as experiment in the sense of using faith to find something out or test a hypothesis. For example , Jesus makes an offer or promise and we either respond or don't respond. I have yet to hear an Atheist say " I knocked on the door on it didn't open and I sought and I didn't find , I genuinely dared God to do something in my life and he did nothing" ...it's usually a case of "why should I have faith , I need proof first , I won't give it a go until I know it's true" Whatever happened to giving it a go IN ORDER to find out if there's anything in it? The proof is in the pudding.
[b]Do you not think that there are times when what 'seems' reasonable at the time is not the thing that ought to be followed.
I overwhelmingly believe just those propositions that I take myself to have good reasons for, and to perform those actions that I take to be reasonable (all things considered). In general, I think people ought to do that which ...[text shortened]... disagree that the remainder is necessary for having a relatively stable set of beliefs.[/b]
25 May 06
Originally posted by KellyJayBut this is ridiculous epistemology.
You don't think the God who created the universe and started the
process can at will, deal with the issues that would arise?
Kelly
Not everything that is within God's power will be in accord with his will.
It would also be in within God's power to make your car ascend and fly at 800 miles per hour, but you don't rely on this when planning how long it will take you drive across the country. Or do you?
29 May 06
Originally posted by knightmeisterO.K., I hereby dare God to reveal himself in my life. I'm going to pray tonight that he show himself tomorrow. Tomorrow I'll get up early and go to bed late so as to maximize the amount of time God has to show himself.
So what do you think about the idea of faith as experiment in the sense of using faith to find something out or test a hypothesis. For example , Jesus makes an offer or promise and we either respond or don't respond. I have yet to hear an Atheist say " I knocked on the door on it didn't open and I sought and I didn't find , I genuinely dared God to do ...[text shortened]... it a go IN ORDER to find out if there's anything in it? The proof is in the pudding.
What should I look for?
29 May 06
Originally posted by bbarrWhat should I look for?
O.K., I hereby dare God to reveal himself in my life. I'm going to pray tonight that he show himself tomorrow. Tomorrow I'll get up early and go to bed late so as to maximize the amount of time God has to show himself.
What should I look for?
Only you could possibly answer that question in truth.