Faith

Originally posted by whodey
So what rank would Jesus Christ attain in your estimation in terms of being a philisopher? Especially in light of his simplisitic message.

I have no idea; I don't study the bible. But thoughts and theories can be essentially simple and yet powerful, insightful and cogent (utilitarianism, evolution, etc). Many of the best thoughts and theories are.

Originally posted by dottewell
I have no idea; I don't study the bible. But thoughts and theories can be essentially simple and yet powerful, insightful and cogent (utilitarianism, evolution, etc). Many of the best thoughts and theories are.

So you have never studied the Bible? May I ask why especially in light of its impact upon other philosophies/philosophers?

Originally posted by whodey
So you have never studied the Bible? May I ask why especially in light of its impact upon other philosophies/philosophers?

I didn't say I had never studied the Bible; at any rate, I don't really consider it a philosophical work (in the sense of one which presents reasoned arguments for a particular position).

It is, of course, possible that this is an oversight on my part.

Originally posted by whodey
So you have never studied the Bible? May I ask why especially in light of its impact upon other philosophies/philosophers?

What impact exactly?

Originally posted by whodey
I never intended to prove my position, rather, it is simply evidence. However, here is another way of looking at things. Consider the following two possibilities:

1. The God of Abraham is real and is the power behind reaching out to mankind via his word.

2. The God of Abraham is not real and by mere chance he has survived since ancient times as well ...[text shortened]... istically believable. That does not mean it is true either, however, it is a good indication.

"Simplistic" is the key word here. I fully agree that your position is extremely "simplistic." I am also guessing that you don't have the slightest idea what the word means. And how you arrived at the conclusion that your position was more "statistically believable" is unfathomable. Any chance that you employed Kabbalah here?

You can phrase the opposing view to try to make it look overly convoluted and implausible, but that doesn't make it so. There are perfectly plausible and more parsimonious explanations for why the Abrahamic religions, their texts, and their adherents have survived as long as they have. Using 'god' as an explanation fails to answer the questions. On the contrary, such a tactic opens many more questions than it answers. And your so called "prophesy" is ridiculous to the point of being unworthy of any consideration at all.

Originally posted by Starrman
What impact exactly?

Christianity has had a profound impact on Western civilization in general and I suspect Islam in the Eastern regions. Therefore, philosophers originating from either of these worlds would have likewise been influenced in their thinking by such cultures whether or not they included the concepts of religious thought in their writings.

Originally posted by whodey
Christianity has had a profound impact on Western civilization in general and I suspect Islam in the Eastern regions. Therefore, philosophers originating from either of these worlds would have likewise been influenced in their thinking by such cultures whether or not they included the concepts of religious thought in their writings.

Yes, christianity has had a profound impact on Western civilization. We'd be a fairly advanced culture by now if it weren't for its lingering effects. But alas...

Originally posted by rwingett
"Simplistic" is the key word here. I fully agree that your position is extremely "simplistic." I am also guessing that you don't have the slightest idea what the word means. And how you arrived at the conclusion that your position was more "statistically believable" is unfathomable. Any chance that you employed Kabbalah here?

You can phrase the opposing "prophesy" is ridiculous to the point of being unworthy of any consideration at all.

Of coarse there are explanations of why the religion of the God of Abraham has survived as a viable religion of today and explanations as to why the religious texts have survived etc. For example, there are historical reasons as to why religious texts have survived such as monks writing down and preserving them in out of the way places etc. However, what I am attempting to point out is that there may have been a higher power overseeing such details in order to overcome the odds of it all surviving until today.

Consider the following;

1. How many ancient religions have survived until today as a major world wide religion? Off the top of my head I can think of religions of the God of Abraham and Hinduism. Compare that to how many religions have existed in the world until today. What are the odds that the God of Abraham would be one of them, and not only that, it would be the most pervasive world wide?
2. How many ancient texts in general have survived until present. This is another gauntlet from which the odds of survival are in question. For example, the library of Alexander burning to the ground comes to mind. Also consider those individuals over the centuries who have sought to actively destroy such religious manuscripts in order to destroy the religion.

As far as the accuracy of prophecy goes, why is it ridiculous? What are the odds that Christ would have fulfilled the prophesies of the Messiah in the Old Tesatament and what are the odds of the prophesies of his second coming begining to take shape today?

To sum up, what are the odds of this ancient religion surviving, the texts surviving, his chosen people and nation surviving, and the prophesies having been fulfilled for the Messiah as well as prophesies being fulfilled for his second coming combined?

I almost feel as though I am trying to get some CEO of a cigarette company to conceede that smoking causes cancer. No matter how much evidence I throw at him, in the end I cannot "prove" that smoking causes cancer. All I can do is point to the medical evidence that suggests that it can cause cancer as well as point to the high % of people who have developed cancer from smoking. That is, of coarse, while I bang my head as hard as I can into the nearest wall. 🙄

Originally posted by whodey
To sum up, what are the odds of this ancient religion surviving, the texts surviving, his chosen people and nation surviving, and the prophesies having been fulfilled for the Messiah as well as prophesies being fulfilled for his second coming combined?

The odds are very good that the person who commands the greatest political influence and the
strongest army will ensure that his religion will survive. You can thank Constantine and then
Charlemagne for the survival of Christianity. Had they chosen some other religion, you very
likely would be arguing with the folk here at RHP about the Divinity of Mithras or something.

As for the 'prophesies having been fulfilled,' how difficult would it be for the authors of the
Gospels to throw in literarily astute details that didn't happen so that it would appear that Jesus
fulfilled a whole bunch of prophecies? Let's consider the various prophecies that were 'fulfilled'
in the Passion account (given that we have entered Holy Week). Given St Luke's remarkable
literary flair, his knowledge of the life of the Hellenized Jew, and his interest in uniting Jesus
with Elijah and the prophets, how hard would it be for him to add details like that Jesus' tunic
wasn't torn, or to put into Jesus' mouth the words of Psalm 22, or to insist that Jesus died
promptly as to ensure that His legs weren't broken. Perhaps some are true, but do you genuinely
believe that all of them are true? You really think that St Luke's faith in Jesus' Messiahship
didn't cause him to embellish a little?

Nemesio

Originally posted by Nemesio
The odds are very good that the person who commands the greatest political influence and the
strongest army will ensure that his religion will survive. You can thank Constantine and then
Charlemagne for the survival of Christianity. Had they chosen some other religion, you very
likely would be arguing with the folk here at RHP about the Divinity of Mith s faith in Jesus' Messiahship
didn't cause him to embellish a little?

Nemesio

So what about Israel becoming a nation again and prophesies about the end times in terms of the nations of the world coming against Israel? Is this being staged as well as we speak? You are right in that the religion "had help" in becoming what it is today such as Constantine being converted, however, is God absent in all of this?

Edit: Had the religion of the divinity of Mithras survived, you are right we would be talking about him.........but we are not. Therefore, since the god of the religion of Mirthras is dead I must also assume that the god Mithras is dead as well.

Originally posted by whodey
Had the religion of the divinity of Mithras survived, you are right we would be talking about him.........but we are not. Therefore, since the god of the religion of Mirthras is dead I must also assume that the god Mithras is dead as well.

So, if (for example) there were a mass extinction all the Christians, you would believe that the God
of Christianity would be dead as well? You would accept this as testament to the failure of the
truth of Christianity?!?

Nemesio

Originally posted by whodey
Of coarse there are explanations of why the religion of the God of Abraham has survived as a viable religion of today and explanations as to why the religious texts have survived etc. For example, there are historical reasons as to why religious texts have survived such as monks writing down and preserving them in out of the way places etc. However, what I ...[text shortened]... smoking. That is, of coarse, while I bang my head as hard as I can into the nearest wall. 🙄

Some religion had to be the most popular worldwide. I doubt Christianity was until the last century (if then) and doubt whether it will be in the next.

One reason why some religious texts didn't survive is because Christians destroyed them and killed the believers in them. I suppose God helped them do this.

Hinduism existed for thousands of years before Christianity. So have other belief systems. Nothing amazing there.

The people most familiar with the prophecies of the Old Testament i.e. the Jews don't believe Jesus fulfilled the prophecies of the Messiah of the OT. And the prophecies regarding the second coming are sufficiently vague so that somebody or another has said we were in the last days for about oh, 2000 years.

Originally posted by whodey
So what rank would Jesus Christ attain in your estimation in terms of being a philisopher? Especially in light of his simplisitic message.

He's up there with Socrates, in that he changed the course of history with his simplistic message but didn't write anything down, so that we are reliant on his followers for accounts of his life. Socrates' life is recounted in different ways by Xenophon, Aristophanes, and Plato; Jesus has four official gospels, a lot of apocryphal ones, and an a-Pauling interpreter, just for starters.

Originally posted by whodey
Christianity has had a profound impact on Western civilization in general and I suspect Islam in the Eastern regions. Therefore, philosophers originating from either of these worlds would have likewise been influenced in their thinking by such cultures whether or not they included the concepts of religious thought in their writings.

That's not only debatable, but also not what you originally claimed. You said the bible had an impact on philosophers.

To my mind the only influence the bible has had as a philosophical text is in serving to prop up Hume's wonky billiard table.

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
He's up there with Socrates, in that he changed the course of history with his simplistic message but didn't write anything down, so that we are reliant on his followers for accounts of his life. Socrates' life is recounted in different ways by Xenophon, Aristophanes, and Plato; Jesus has four official gospels, a lot of apocryphal ones, and an a-Pauling interpreter, just for starters.

Aristophanes didn't recount Socrates' life, he only caricatured him (and sophistry in general) in The Clouds.