Fellowship, Fall, Salvation:

Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke
The 'cherry picking' defence never holds water. The old and new testaments are divinely inspired are they not?

In which case, you need to defend every cherry.

No, it is not "capitulation".

"You need to defend every cherry." Yes, ALL the cherries, taken as a whole. The tapestry of the Bible is rich and detailed, it does not stand alone a piece at a time, it is the entire tapestry, taken together, not nit-picked apart, that stands as the Word of God.

Originally posted by Suzianne
No, it is not "capitulation".

"You need to defend every cherry." Yes, ALL the cherries, taken as a whole. The tapestry of the Bible is rich and detailed, it does not stand alone a piece at a time, it is the entire tapestry, taken together, not nit-picked apart, that stands as the Word of God.

And you think looking at the cherry tree as a whole justifies those few rotten cherries hanging from the branches?


Take for example 2 Kings 2:23-25. Instead of addressing this cherry, you hit the thumbs down. You don't consider that capitulation? Or indeed that you are actually giving the thumbs down to your own religious book?.

Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke
And you think looking at the cherry tree as a whole justifies those few rotten cherries hanging from the branches?


Take for example 2 Kings 2:23-25. Instead of addressing this cherry, you hit the thumbs down. You don't consider that capitulation? Or indeed that you are actually giving the thumbs down to your own religious book?.

When confronted with the word Holy, what is it that comes to your mind? When confronted
with the works sin and evil, what comes to mind, and if you confront sin and evil with the
Holy what is going to happen?

Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke

And you think looking at the cherry tree as a whole justifies those few rotten cherries hanging from the branches?


Take for example 2 Kings 2:23-25. Instead of addressing this cherry, you hit the thumbs down. You don't consider that capitulation? Or indeed that you are actually giving the thumbs down to your own religious book?.

Copied with permission from Christian Think Tank of Glenn Miller.
http://christianthinktank.com/qmeanelisha.html

1. First of all, they weren't "little kids"!

"'Little children' is an unfortunate translation. The Hebrew expression neurim qetannim is best rendered 'young lads' or 'young men.' From numerous examples where ages are specified in the Old Testament, we know that these were boys from twelve to thirty years old. One of these words described Isaac at his sacrifice in Genesis 22:12, when he was easily in his early twenties. It described Joseph in Genesis 37:2 when he was seventeen years old. In fact, the same word described army men in 1 Kings 20:14-15...these are young men ages between twelve and thirty." [HSOBX]

2. Elisha wasn't "old"--he was the same age as they were!
"But was Elisha an old man short on patience and a sense of humor? This charge is also distorted, for Elisha can hardly have been more than twenty-five when this incident happened. He lived nearly sixty years after this..." [HSOBX]

3. Elisha had JUST FINISHED doing a mercy-miracle for the entire city of nearby Jericho!!!!
"The chapter closes with two miracles of Elisha. These immediately established the character of his ministry--his would be a helping ministry to those in need, but one that would brook no disrespect for God and his earthly representatives. In the case of Jericho, though the city had been rebuilt (with difficulty) in the days of Ahab (1 Kings 16:34, q.v.), it had remained unproductive. Apparently the water still lay under Joshua's curse (cf. Josh 6:26), so that both citizenry and land suffered greatly (v. 19). Elisha's miracle fully removed the age-old judgment, thus allowing a new era to dawn on this area (vv. 20-22). Interestingly Elisha wrought the cure through means supplied by the people of Jericho so that their faith might be strengthened through submission and active participation in God's cleansing work. (EBCOT)

4. This event took place around a cult city (somewhere between Bethel and Jericho, a distance of aproximately 10 miles), a center of anti-YHWH worship:
"Elisha's sweet memories of Jericho received a souring touch at Bethel (v. 23). The public insult against Elisha was aimed ultimately at the God whom he represented. Indeed Elisha's whole prophetic ministry was in jeopardy; therefore the taunt had to be dealt with decisively. The sudden arrival of the two bears who mauled forty-two youths to death would serve as both an awful sentence on unbelievers--and thus, too, on Jeroboam's cult city--and a published reminder that blasphemy against the true God and his program would be met with swift and certain consequences (v. 24)." [EBCOT]

5. The harmless "teasing" was hardly that--they were direct confrontation between the forces of Baal and the prophet of YHWH that had just healed the water supply (casting doubt on the power and beneficence of Baal!). This was a mass demonstration (if 42 were mauled, how many people were in the crowd to begin with? 50? 100? 400?).:
"As Elisha was traveling from Jericho to Bethel several dozen youths (young men, not children) confronted him. Perhaps they were young false prophets of Baal. Their jeering, recorded in the slang of their day, implied that if Elisha were a great prophet of the Lord, as Elijah was, he should go on up into heaven as Elijah reportedly had done. The epithet baldhead may allude to lepers who had to shave their heads and were considered detestable outcasts. Or it may simply have been a form of scorn, for baldness was undesirable (cf. Isa. 3:17, 24). Since it was customary for men to cover their heads, the young men probably could not tell if Elisha was bald or not. They regarded God's prophet with contempt....Elisha then called down a curse on the villains. This cursing stemmed not from Elisha pride but from their disrespect for the Lord as reflected in their treatment of His spokesman (cf. 1:9-14). Again God used wild animals to execute His judgment (cf., e.g., 1 Kings 13:24). That 42 men were mauled by the two bears suggests that a mass demonstration had been organized against God and Elisha." [Bible Knowledge Commentary]

6. There may have been elements of public safety involved:
"A careful study of this incident in context shows that it was far more serious than a "mild personal offense." It was a situation of serious public danger, quite as grave as the large youth gangs that roam the ghetto sections of our modern American cities. If these young hoodlums were ranging about in packs of fifty or more, derisive towards respectable adults and ready to mock even a well-known man of God, there is no telling what violence they might have inflicted on the citizenry of the religious center of the kingdom of Israel (as Bethel was), had they been allowed to continue their riotous course. " [EBD]

7. Elisha didn't actually call out the bears--he merely pronounced judgment on these demonstrators. God decided what form the response took:
"Perhaps it was for this reason that God saw fit to put forty-two of them to death in this spectacular fashion (there is no evidence that Elisha himself, in imposing a curse, prayed for this specific mode of punishment), in order to strike terror into other youth gangs that were infesting the city and to make them realize that neither Yahweh Himself nor any of His anointed prophets were to be threatened or treated with contempt." [EBD]

8. This curse/judgment was part of the covenant stipulations--it was a reminder of Israel's responsibilities (and opportunities for blessings, as well):
"Elisha pronounced a curse similar to the covenant curse of Lev 26:21-22. The result gave warning of the judgment that would come on the entire nation should it persist in disobedience and apostasy (see 2Ch 36:16). Thus Elisha's first acts were indicative of his ministry that would follow: God's covenant blessings would come to those who looked to him (vv. 19-22), but God's covenant curses would fall on those who turned away from him. [NIV Study Bible notes, in loc.]
"If you remain hostile toward me and refuse to listen to me, I will multiply your afflictions seven times over, as your sins deserve. 22 I will send wild animals against you, and they will rob you of your children, destroy your cattle and make you so few in number that your roads will be deserted." (Lev 26.21f)


9. This visible display of YHWH's power and reality (like the previous display of His kindness and activity for them) was designed to avert a far greater calamity:
"The savagery of wild animals was brutal enough, but it was mild compared to the legendary cruelty of the Assyrians who would appear to complete God's judgment in 722 BC The disastrous fall of Samaria would have been avoided had the people repented after the bear attack and the increasingly sever divine judgments that followed it. But instead of turning back to God, Israel, as would Judah in a later day, 'mocked God's messengers, despised his words and scoffed at his prophets until the wrath of the LORD was arounsed against his people and there was no remedy' (2 Chron 36:16)" [HSOBX]

So, this was hardly the atrocity that it is often construed as--the historical data casts the event into a TOTALLY different light. It WAS a very significant event for the religious fortune (and therefore, future welfare) of the Northern Kingdom...and it called for decisive revelation from God about the severity of the people's condition and situation...

Originally posted by KellyJay
When confronted with the word Holy, what is it that comes to your mind? When confronted
with the works sin and evil, what comes to mind, and if you confront sin and evil with the
Holy what is going to happen?

Did you use Google Translate for this?
Raise a fault report because that does not make any sense.

Originally posted by sonship

[b]And you think looking at the cherry tree as a whole justifies those few rotten cherries hanging from the branches?


Take for example 2 Kings 2:23-25. Instead of addressing this cherry, you hit the thumbs down. You don't consider that capitulation? Or indeed that you are actually giving the thumbs down to your own religious book?.

...[text shortened]... sive revelation from God about the severity of the people's condition and situation... [/quote][/b]

If a modern day mob of 42 'young lads' were going around calling Christians baldhead, would you advocate them being ripped to pieces by bears because of their contempt? - And would you be okay with your perfectly loving God giving the go ahead for such an abomination?

Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke
If a modern day mob of 42 'young lads' were going around calling Christians baldhead, would you advocate them being ripped to pieces by bears because of their contempt? - And would you be okay with your perfectly loving God giving the go ahead for such an abomination?

Sorry I don't get where you are going with this, are you saying a God that doesn't exist commanded bears to rip kids to bits?

Originally posted by dj2becker
Sorry I don't get where you are going with this, are you saying a God that doesn't exist commanded bears to rip kids to bits?

I'm not going anywhere with you.

Jog on.

Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke
If a modern day mob of 42 'young lads' were going around calling Christians baldhead, would you advocate them being ripped to pieces by bears because of their contempt? - And would you be okay with your perfectly loving God giving the go ahead for such an abomination?

If a representative of a nation is mistreated won't that nation take offense? If God sends someone and he or she is mistreated will He not take offense? Do you think insulting God matters?

Originally posted by KellyJay
If a representative of a nation is mistreated won't that nation take offense? If God sends someone and he or she is mistreated will He not take offense? Do you think insulting God matters?

Sure Kelly,..........but bears.

Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke
Sure Kelly,..........but bears.

Everyone ends up in the grave eventually. Do you have a personal preference of how it should happen?

Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke

If a modern day mob of 42 'young lads' were going around calling Christians baldhead,

God became a man and endured the harshest indignities.

I read the Bible. I read the Bible ALL the way through.
I notice that God does not always do everything exactly the same way.
Though His attitude may be the same, He will manifest His dealing in ONE way - for our edification at one instance, and reveal something else of His character ANOTHER way - again for our edification.

For one who does not bother to read the Scripture THROUGH he may choke on one particular instance. I kept reading. I read ON and noticed similar situations where perhaps God handled the matter in ANOTHER way.

Christ was God incarnate as a man. He endured much more than being called baldhead by some unruly youths. Another aspect of God's character was manifested in His willingness to undergo such indignities as torture and crucifixion for our redemption.

Yea, I saw the story about the two bears. But I read ON. I read how the Son of God could have called twelve legions of angels to wipe out those arresting Him. But He prayed for their forgiveness from the Father.

Does it mean God no longer cared about His holiness and glory as He did concerning His prophet Elisha ? No. But it manifests a fuller revelation of Who God is.

I read the Bible all the way through.
I don't hunt for the first bone to choke on when I sit down to a turkey feast.

would you advocate them being ripped to pieces by bears because of their contempt? -

God does the RIGHT thing in the RIGHT way at the RIGHT time.
If I didn't flinch at anything written in the Bible I would be worried.

I would not change the story. I would not altar the story. I would not attempt to re-write the story to accommodate my untrustworthy sense of fair play. I take the story as is. I say Amen. And I keep reading ON.

And would you be okay with your perfectly loving God giving the go ahead for such an abomination?

I don't consider your criticism to be sober-minded in light of the whole plenary revelation of God in Scripture. The thought that nothing in the 66 books of the Bible should ever seem to stroke my fur the wrong way is not a sober-minded opinion to me.

It reveals a kind of drunken stupor of presumption that must measure up to your approval in all His ways. The Person most qualified to level a criticism against God in the Old Testament would be Jesus Christ. He never did. Rather He spoke of the "Righteous Father".

Along with your considering the prophet Elisha cursing the insulting youths consider the very SAME God not summoning legions of angels to wipe out the Romans and persecuting Jews yet willingly laying down His life in utter indignity to save them from eternal damnation.

Same God.

" And when they came to the place called The Skull, there they crucified Him and the criminals, one on the right hand one on the left.

And Jesus said, Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing ...

And the people stood by, looking on. And the rulers also sneered, saying, He saved others; let Him save Himself if this is the Christ of God, the Chosen One!

And the soldiers also mocked Him, coming to Him and offering Him vinegar, and saying, If You are the King of the Jews, save Yourself!" (Luke 23:33-37)

This is the same God groaning in Christ on His cross for you, interceding for you, for your forgiveness.

Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke
Sure Kelly,..........but bears.

Look at all the ways God has done that elsewhere, he used a lion to kill but not eat someone. We are all going to die at some place and time if God wishes to make a point, He can to show it wasn't a natural death, by doing something way out of natural causes.

Originally posted by dj2becker
Everyone ends up in the grave eventually. Do you have a personal preference of how it should happen?

Not really.

Originally posted by dj2becker
Everyone ends up in the grave eventually. Do you have a personal preference of how it should happen?

For me or you?