First cause

Originally posted by rwingett
Scottishinnz is right. You obviously do not understand this whole omnipotence thing. I do not need scientific evidence of plate tectonics to back up my position. I only need to know what it means for a god to be omnipotent to know that such a being could cause plate tectonics without causing fatal tsunamis. Go do some research and quit wasting my time.

Originally posted by scottishinnz
You cannot logically have an omnipotent God and "free will". You might have the perception of free will amongst the people, but they'd still only be doing what God knew they'd do before they did it. If that is the case, then they are not free will agents.

isnt god our own limitation to understanding, hence thee above.

Originally posted by knightmeister
God has an infinite variety of beginning options to choose from and he can clearly foresee the entire causal chain of events that will proceed from that input, all the way to the very end ---ringwett--

Wrong again ! He doesn't foresee the events , he POSTsees them because he is both at the end of time and beginning of time equally. God is NOT trav u to show how knowing the date of JFK's death proves his death on that date was inevitable.

One more iddy biddy point:
freaky keeps ranting on about God achieving the impossible, free-will etc... but consider this:

Suppose God did create a perfect universe and then free will, such that his culpability for our actions is relinquished. The main argument to defend a God that causes Earthquakes etc... is that humans have sinned. But if God set the wheels in motion then though by your argument that we have free will you could claim for now he didn't foresee what sins we would commit...he either knew precisely when such sins would be committed, because natural disasters are physical events for which he'd have complete knowledge of (contradicts his inability to foresee such sins) or he kills people willy-nilly!

Originally posted by Conrau K
[b]You cannot logically have an omnipotent God and "free will". You might have the perception of free will amongst the people, but they'd still only be doing what God knew they'd do before they did it. If that is the case, then they are not free will agents.

Omnipotence does not mean that God "knew they'd do before they did it." That is the attribute of omniscience.[/b]

Originally posted by Conrau K
Scottinnz has often tediously articulated a very rigid view of omnipotence: that it means God can do absolutely anything. Whenever omnipotence is discussed he maintains that it must mean that God can contradict his will and do the impossible and absurd. Most Christians repudiate such a view.

Originally posted by scottishinnz
I would suggest that such Christians require a new word. "Semi-potent" perhaps.

Originally posted by Agerg
One more iddy biddy point:
freaky keeps ranting on about God achieving the impossible, free-will etc... but consider this:

Suppose God did create a perfect universe and then free will, such that his culpability for our actions is relinquished. The main argument to defend a God that causes Earthquakes etc... is that humans have sinned. But if God set the wh ...[text shortened]... knowledge of (contradicts his inability to foresee such sins) or he kills people willy-nilly!

Originally posted by Agerg
Knightmeister, you posit that God exists outside of time, that he exists at the beginning and the end of a time-line...please define what is meant by [b]He doesn't know what you will do until you do it but the moment when you do it is a past event already for him.
Specifically, what has to occur such that God who at some point didn't know what you were ...[text shortened]... hom your God exists independently of) does Event A lead to Event B from God's point of view?[/b]

Originally posted by scottishinnz
Whether he foresees or postsees from his perspective is irrespective. It's the perspective of the individuals involved that is important.

If I tell you what you did yesterday, you are quite unable to change it. If God tells you what you'll do tomorrow, you'd be equally unable to change it, since God knows it'll happen. Thus, no free will.

Originally posted by knightmeister
Maybe you should demonstrate some self knowledge and realise that you probably cling so rigidly to this extreme view of omnipotence because it suits your position and enables you to create a simplistic argument against a strawman god who doesn't exist anyway.

I suspect that such self knowledge will not be forthcoming though.

Originally posted by scottishinnz
What a load of tosh.

You cannot logically have an omnipotent God and "free will". You might have the perception of free will amongst the people, but they'd still only be doing what God knew they'd do before they did it. If that is the case, then they are not free will agents.

Originally posted by knightmeister
It's actually both perspectives that are important. The point is that God doesn't tell us what we are going to do so therefore we can still have free will. He may know what we are about to do but as long as he doesn't tell us then we are still free (from our perspective) to do what we like.

Infact you have brought up a very good point here because ...[text shortened]... sination date says nothing about whether that date was inevitable or not.

Thanks mate.

Originally posted by knightmeister
On one level we have the capacity to surprise God in the sense that some of our actions are free choices. On another level God knows what we have done with our lives because it is a past event somehow for him.