First cause

Originally posted by scottishinnz
Och away and boil yer head.

If God knows everything omnipotent, if he doesn't not omnipotent. It's that simple. Make a choice. P or not-P.

He does know everything , he knows both the knowledge of what you will do and the UN-knowledge of that unpredictability before you do it.

I admit it's hard to understand but so are many ideas of quantum physics . I bet if this was an idea put forth by a quantum physicist about quarks etc you wouild have far less of a problem with it.

Let's guess , quantum physics is allowed to have strange paradoxes attached to it , God is not . I wonder if you are being objective here?

Originally posted by knightmeister
But he doesn't know what we will do BEFORE we do it because BEFORE is a bit meaningless to an eternal being. He knows what you will do BECAUSE you have already done it. If you don't do it , he can't know it.

Also , an omnipotent God should be able to bring about free will otherwise he is not omnipotent (your view)

I've ALWAYS maintained omnipotence and omniscience are contradictory, and thus, not my God. I don't have one.

As for your timeless being, it makes no difference. It makes no sense, and certainly you lose any ability to call God a logical being, but it makes no difference. Provided he knows what we'll do before we do (from our perspective) we cannot do otherwise.


Take a course in elementary logic.

Originally posted by knightmeister
He does know everything , he knows both the knowledge of what you will do and the UN-knowledge of that unpredictability before you do it.

I admit it's hard to understand but so are many ideas of quantum physics . I bet if this was an idea put forth by a quantum physicist about quarks etc you wouild have far less of a problem with it.

Let's gues ...[text shortened]... have strange paradoxes attached to it , God is not . I wonder if you are being objective here?

This has nothing to do with anything quantum. Now you're just out and our lying. before you were only fabricating.

Originally posted by knightmeister
On one level we have the capacity to surprise God in the sense that some of our actions are free choices. On another level God knows what we have done with our lives because it is a past event somehow for him.

It's to do with the way God knows our actions and choices. He knows what I will choose tomorrow . How does he know what choices I will make ...[text shortened]... ents.

It's because we are trapped in time that it seems to be contradictory to us.

You keep repeating this gibberish as if the mere constant repetition of it will somehow make it true. It will not. Your conceptualization of "existing out of time" is pure nonsense from start to finish. God is omniscient, but wait...he's really only partially omniscient. Talk about a logical contradiction. It is amazing the number of increasingly elaborate hoops you're willing to jump through in order to salvage your prized conception of "free will."

Originally posted by scottishinnz
I've ALWAYS maintained omnipotence and omniscience are contradictory, and thus, not my God. I don't have one.

As for your timeless being, it makes no difference. It makes no sense, and certainly you lose any ability to call God a logical being, but it makes no difference. Provided he knows what we'll do before we do (from our perspective) we cannot do otherwise.


Take a course in elementary logic.

Provided he knows what we'll do before we do (from our perspective) we cannot do otherwise. ---scotty---

Do you see the mistake here? He doesn't know what we will do before we do it FROM OUR PERSPECTIVE but from HIS perspective.

There's a whole load of people that you know of in history and you know exactly what they are about to do before they do it. What does this prove? zilch

You know what JFK will do from your perspective but NOT from his perspective. If you are JFK travelling along a timeline you are still free from moment to moment. The fact that you know what he is about to do doesn't prove that his choices were not free. (neither does it prove they are free - only that that was what he did free or not)

Feel free to prove that it does. I bet ya can't.

Originally posted by knightmeister
Provided he knows what we'll do before we do (from our perspective) we cannot do otherwise. ---scotty---

Do you see the mistake here? He doesn't know what we will do before we do it FROM OUR PERSPECTIVE but from HIS perspective.

There's a whole load of people that you know of in history and you know exactly what they are about to do before they ...[text shortened]... that that was what he did free or not)

Feel free to prove that it does. I bet ya can't.

If AutoPilot God knows our choices, why would he have set up the universe for the primary purpose of giving humans free will? That's assuming he had a choice in the matter which he didn't if he's "outside of time" as you describe.

Originally posted by knightmeister
Provided he knows what we'll do before we do (from our perspective) we cannot do otherwise. ---scotty---

Do you see the mistake here? He doesn't know what we will do before we do it FROM OUR PERSPECTIVE but from HIS perspective.

There's a whole load of people that you know of in history and you know exactly what they are about to do before they ...[text shortened]... that that was what he did free or not)

Feel free to prove that it does. I bet ya can't.

You don't seem to get it.

We will believe we have free will if we don't know what'll happen.

This is completely separate to whether we actually have free will or not. A truly omnipotent God would preclude this, by very definition.

Originally posted by knightmeister
On one level we have the capacity to surprise God in the sense that some of our actions are free choices. On another level God knows what we have done with our lives because it is a past event somehow for him.

It's to do with the way God knows our actions and choices. He knows what I will choose tomorrow . How does he know what choices I will make ents.

It's because we are trapped in time that it seems to be contradictory to us.

Knightmeister, you didn't really answer the part of my question I was most interested in regarding *your* concept of this God

You said in your response that God neither foresees or predicts, rather he watches
Please explain the mechanism that operates such that a being who exists outside of time is able to "watch" something (ie; not observe all events simultaneously, such that he knows everything)

*edit* I suspect you will at some point answer: -he exists on his own time-line- and watches us like we're a long episode of some TV program, thing is though this is tantamount to having him exist within our timeline for he can certainly invade it if he chooses and he is himself bound by some system such that event B must wait for event A to have occured, furthermore...as many have suggested, God when he created the universe, even if he was not aware of the free will choices people would make, he would certainly have known at what point events that are independent of our actions would have occured (ie; natural disasters). This implies his destruction of many thousands (millions even) of human would have been coincident with actions on our part you would argue justifies them. This however implies he knew that we would make certain choices that were sinful (and he knew this before he created us for you argue he created the universe first)

Originally posted by scottishinnz
You don't seem to get it.

We will believe we have free will if we don't know what'll happen.

This is completely separate to whether we actually have free will or not. A truly omnipotent God would preclude this, by very definition.

However, no christian believes that God is omnipotent in the way you define omnipotence. My definition is that God is omnipotent in the sense that he could end the world tomorrow if he chose to , but he makes himself less than omnipotent by his own choice. God in short is able to suspend his own omnipotence in order to create free will (for example) . This does not mean that his nature is not still omnipotent only that he choses not to expres his omnipotent nature some of the time.


The USA could blow us all to bits if it wanted but it chooses not to for very good reasons. Is the USA less of a military , omnipotent superpower because of this , of course not.

Originally posted by rwingett
No. I don't know what you're talking about.

I could have told you that! 😛

Originally posted by Agerg
Knightmeister, you didn't really answer the part of my question I was most interested in regarding *your* concept of this God

You said in your response that God neither foresees or predicts, rather he watches
Please explain the mechanism that operates such that a being who exists [b]outside of time is able to "watch" something (ie; not observe all even ...[text shortened]... e sinful (and he knew this before he created us for you argue he created the universe first)[/b]

Please explain the mechanism that operates such that a being who exists outside of time is able to "watch" something (ie; not observe all events simultaneously, such that he knows everything)----------------------------- AGERG----


This is where Christ comes in. Christ is the "part of" God that is bound up in time in some way. Notice how when Jesus was around he was surprised by certain people doing things (like the centurions faith) . God is also in time and bound to the universe in Christ. God is also three , so in some ways God can both know things and not know things simultaneously (like Jesus not knowing the appointed time of the end of the world but the father "knowing all things".

If I am honest , this apsect is unfathomable really , but I'm sure it's part of the answer.

Originally posted by knightmeister
However, no christian believes that God is omnipotent in the way you define omnipotence. My definition is that God is omnipotent in the sense that he could end the world tomorrow if he chose to , but he makes himself less than omnipotent by his own choice. God in short is able to suspend his own omnipotence in order to create free will (for example) . ...[text shortened]... reasons. Is the USA less of a military , omnipotent superpower because of this , of course not.

omni = all.


Got it?


The USA is not omnipotent. It's military is finite. Large, but finite.
You seem to be positing a finite God.

Originally posted by knightmeister
Please explain the mechanism that operates such that a being who exists outside of time is able to "watch" something (ie; not observe all events simultaneously, such that he knows everything)----------------------------- AGERG----


This is where Christ comes in. Christ is the "part of" God that is bound up in time in some way. Notice how when Jesus I am honest , this apsect is unfathomable really , but I'm sure it's part of the answer.

This is where Christ comes in. Christ is the "part of" God that is bound up in time in some way. Notice how when Jesus was around he was surprised by certain people doing things (like the centurions faith) . God is also in time and bound to the universe in Christ. God is also three , so in some ways God can both know things and not know things simultaneously (like Jesus not knowing the appointed time of the end of the world but the father "knowing all things".

If I am honest , this apsect is unfathomable really , but I'm sure it's part of the answer.

This all sounds rather dubious (God is both Omniscient and Ignorant at the same time???) but I shall press you further...

Jesus only existed on Earth by Christians reckoning for about 40 years
So at such points when God was not bound to our time-line by virtue of Jesus's stay on Earth, what mechanism allowed God to "watch" things outside of time?

Originally posted by scottishinnz
I would suggest that such Christians require a new word. "Semi-potent" perhaps.

No; the current use of the word omnipotence is reasonble. If you actually thought through your eccentric view of omnipotence, you would realise that such omnipotence is not omnipotence at all. If God can do ANYTHING, as you say so emphatically, then he could also do things against his will. But if such a God can do things against his will, to do what he does not will, means that another power must override his (to force him to do what he does not want to.)

Therefore, Christians recognise that a sensible view of omnipotence would exclude feats which diminish his power (going against his will; doing the illogical; forfeiting his omnipotence; making rocks larger than himself.)

Originally posted by Agerg
One more iddy biddy point:
freaky keeps ranting on about God achieving the impossible, free-will etc... but consider this:

Suppose God did create a perfect universe and then free will, such that his culpability for our actions is relinquished. The main argument to defend a God that causes Earthquakes etc... is that humans have sinned. But if God set the wh ...[text shortened]... knowledge of (contradicts his inability to foresee such sins) or he kills people willy-nilly!

Arguments such as this incorrectly put the emphasis on the suffering of man. The glory of God is the ultimate consideration, not the sufferings of man.