Food for Thought: Is Your Religion the Only Way

Originally posted by KellyJay
So if that is the case what is the complaint, bad things happen?
If you want to claim God is being unjust in His judgment I'd say we
will have to wait and see, but then it would be to late to change.
Kelly

You are trying to justify Gods injustice by giving examples of unjust judges on earth and somehow deducing that all judges are just and therefore God is just. A clearly flawed argument. Why don't you just admit you were wrong instead of trying to threaten me with judgment day, an empty threat anyway as I don't believe in God.

Originally posted by twhitehead
You are trying to justify Gods injustice by giving examples of unjust judges on earth and somehow deducing that all judges are just and therefore God is just. A clearly flawed argument. Why don't you just admit you were wrong instead of trying to threaten me with judgment day, an empty threat anyway as I don't believe in God.

Than why discuss God's judgment with me? I'm not going to waist
my times talking to a Mormon on what gods he believes are stronger
than other gods since I don't believe what he believes is reality?

I did not say that all judges are just; I told you your lack of knowledge
will not stop you from being judged, which is true. If you entertain that
God is real and just, the thing you'll regret the most during His
judgments in my opinion will that which you did know and still managed
to go against, and you will be the greater judge there since you will
have more than likely made quite clear by the way you lead your
life you knew the truth and judged others by that knowledge you had.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
Than why discuss God's judgment with me? I'm not going to waist
my times talking to a Mormon on what gods he believes are stronger
than other gods since I don't believe what he believes is reality?

I did not say that all judges are just; If you entertain that
God is real and just, the thing you'll regret the most during His
judgments in my opinion w ...[text shortened]... y you lead your
life you knew the truth and judged others by that knowledge you had.
Kelly

"I told you your lack of knowledge will not stop you from being judged, which is true."

That is not true. In a fair society, as I already explained, real and provable lack of knowledge should stop you from being judged.

Oh wait, I forgot, nothing is provable according to your "faith is faith" theory.

Originally posted by whiterose
"I told you your lack of knowledge will not stop you from being judged, which is true."

That is not true. In a fair society, as I already explained, real and provable lack of knowledge should stop you from being judged.

Oh wait, I forgot, nothing is provable according to your "faith is faith" theory.

Fair, society? You have one in mind?
I promise you if you speed and get caught your knowledge of the
speed limit will not come into play if there is any way at all you could
or should have known the right speed limit.

I can only tell you that we as a people before God have the duty to
care for and warn the others among us that do not know what is coming
with regard to judgment. There is a scripture that says if we do not
warn those around us, God will require their blood at our hands. The
die is cast, and what is coming, is coming no matter if you are ready
for it or not.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
Fair, society? You have one in mind?
I promise you if you speed and get caught your knowledge of the
speed limit will not come into play if there is any way at all you could
or should have known the right speed limit.

I can only tell you that we as a people before God have the duty to
care for and warn the others among us that do not know what is com ...[text shortened]... he
die is cast, and what is coming, is coming no matter if you are ready
for it or not.
Kelly

If you claim that you were speeding because you didn't know the speed limit, then your knowledge of the limit will certainly come into play. As I stated earlier, if the limit was not posted, and you therefore could not have known what it was, then you should not be punished. (whether you have a just judge or not is another story, and seems to be mostly a matter of chance)

I see no correlation between speeding tickets and God, unless you want to claim that your belief in the reality of heaven and hell are equal to my belief in the reality of traffic court. (i.e. there is no such thing as weight of evidence)

Originally posted by whiterose
If you claim that you were speeding because you didn't know the speed limit, then your knowledge of the limit will certainly come into play. As I stated earlier, if the limit was not posted, and you therefore could not have known what it was, then you should not be punished. (whether you have a just judge or not is another story, and seems to be mostly a m ...[text shortened]... my belief in the reality of traffic court. (i.e. there is no such thing as weight of evidence)

If nothing was posted, but odds are and that is almost always true,
the speed limit was posted somewhere, you will be held accountable
for that. Unfair would be if there was no posting anywhere and the only
place the speed limit was known was in the policemans brains. That
typically is not the case, if you want to paint that as how you view
God's laws, you will be left wanting, because there are plenty of
warnings taking place, your getting one now.

You may not see any correlation between speeding and tickets with
God's laws, but as soon as you or someone you know get a ticket
because you or they were speeding and you or they didn't know the
limit, remember this conversation. The ticket will hold up whoever
was speeding will pay, if as you say the just warnings were there to
be seen, you or them not seeing them will not be an acceptable excuse.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
If nothing was posted, but odds are and that is almost always true,
the speed limit was posted somewhere, you will be held accountable
for that. Unfair would be if there was no posting anywhere and the only
place the speed limit was known was in the policemans brains. That
typically is not the case, if you want to paint that as how you view
God's laws, ...[text shortened]... were there to
be seen, you or them not seeing them will not be an acceptable excuse.
Kelly

So you agree with me that if you can prove that you couldn't have known, you will (or at least should) not get punished.

How exactly does this correlate to God again? Are you trying to draw a paralell between the reality of God and the reality of traffic court? Again, this paraellel can only be drawn if there is no such thing as weight of evidence.

Originally posted by wittywonka
This has been nagging at me lately, so I finally came around to posting it.

Many religions, specifically more fundamentalist sects, always seem to have the notion that their religion (and again, sometimes that their specific sect) is the only way to achieve salvation. In other words, they believe that anyone who does not follow their religion will not ...[text shortened]... a heated discussion, but please challenge yourselves to think and discuss the topic. 🙂

God damning people for all eternity because they did not
acknowledge him is absurd. I would not expect this from a loving or
just God. Does love retaliate? No. Hmmm... 80 years of "sin" equals
an enternity of torment. Yeah... that sounds just.

Originally posted by whiterose
So you agree with me that if you can prove that you couldn't have known, you will (or at least should) not get punished.

How exactly does this correlate to God again? Are you trying to draw a paralell between the reality of God and the reality of traffic court? Again, this paraellel can only be drawn if there is no such thing as weight of evidence.

If it is posted, you claim you didn't know, you are still going to get punished.
Your claims about not knowing isn't an excuse, that is my point.
Kelly

Originally posted by whiterose
So you agree with me that if you can prove that you couldn't have known, you will (or at least should) not get punished.

How exactly does this correlate to God again? Are you trying to draw a paralell between the reality of God and the reality of traffic court? Again, this paraellel can only be drawn if there is no such thing as weight of evidence.

God deals in reality, and reality will be what you are going to be going
up against. If you condemn some one for lying, and you lie, you will
have no excuse before God for your lies, if you condemn some one for
stealing and you steal and so on. You are not going to have an
excuse before God. The fact that God has made a way for all of us to
get right with Him that we can accept is a great thing, those that reject
it will stand in front of God and deal with Him strickly on what they did
and didn't do, no one is going to be right with God on those terms.
The "I didn't know" excuse will fall flat there.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
If it is posted, you claim you didn't know, you are still going to get punished.
Your claims about not knowing isn't an excuse, that is my point.
Kelly

You seemed to be saying originally that you would be punished even if you had no way of knowing, which is not the case (or should not be, anyway). If your claims about not knowing are valid and provable then they are certainly an excuse.

Originally posted by KellyJay
God deals in reality, and reality will be what you are going to be going
up against. If you condemn some one for lying, and you lie, you will
have no excuse before God for your lies, if you condemn some one for
stealing and you steal and so on. You are not going to have an
excuse before God. The fact that God has made a way for all of us to
get right w ...[text shortened]... o be right with God on those terms.
The "I didn't know" excuse will fall flat there.
Kelly

Are you trying to draw a paralell between the reality of God and the reality of traffic court? Again, this parallel can only be drawn if there is no such thing as weight of evidence.

You didn't answer my question.

"The FACT that God has made a way for all of us to get right with Him"

This statement really made me laugh. You won't accept scientists' oservations or even the laws of physics as FACT, but you will accept an omnipotent man up in the sky? I think your definition of "fact" needs some work.

Originally posted by KellyJay
You may not see any correlation between speeding and tickets with
God's laws, ......

The fact that you do see a correlation means one of two things:
1. You either believe traffic court to be a totally just system
2. You believe God to be as unjust as traffic court.

I personally believe it to be unjust to be judged on something you did not know. I accept a traffic court judge punishing me solely on the understanding that he is incapable of knowing whether I am lying about not knowing the speed limit.
Of course it is really much deeper than that in traffic court. If the speed limit was posted in a visible place on the road then it was my responsibility to look out for it. Further I was made aware of that responsibility when obtaining my driving liscence. In effect my guilt is still based on something I do know but chose to ignore and not on my violation of a law I was not aware of.
I have not been made aware of any such responsibilities as regards anything that God may judge me for so it cannot be treated as an equivalent situation and in my opinion a judgment based on a violation of a law that the perpetrator is not aware of is unjust.

Originally posted by whiterose
You seemed to be saying originally that you would be punished even if you had no way of knowing, which is not the case (or should not be, anyway). If your claims about not knowing are valid and provable then they are certainly an excuse.

If I said that originally I was wrong, I am sorry, I must have thought
it through and realized that there must be a way for you to know for
it to be fair.

That said, if that was our debate and I started off on the wrong foot,
you corrected my stance. If we are still at odds, we can continue.
Kelly

Originally posted by whiterose
Are you trying to draw a paralell between the reality of God and the reality of traffic court? Again, this parallel can only be drawn if there is no such thing as weight of evidence.

You didn't answer my question.

"The FACT that God has made a way for all of us to get right with Him"

This statement really made me laugh. You won't accept scientists ...[text shortened]... ccept an omnipotent man up in the sky? I think your definition of "fact" needs some work.

Have you seen me say what I have with regard to God a fact at any
time, in any post, in any discussion? Long and short answer to that
question is no, you have not. I am content to say I believe and it is
a matter of faith for me, you are confusing facts and faith in this with
me. When it comes to faith and science, the ten dollar bill discussion
is a prime example where I stand on science, it is what it is. The facts
of a matter are there to see, but if you don't know what you have, you
will make wrong choices and see things in a light they should not be
accepted in. The more you have to rely upon things that may or may
not be right the more assumptions you are making the more faith
and belief you are putting in your conclusions. The father away from
the here and now you look, the more you are relying on things that
cannot be proven wrong.
Kelly