13 Sep 11
2 edits
Originally posted by wolfgang59Having sorted your reasons for the unhelpful "scum" reference in your post title I will give you my experiences and connections that leave me outside the definition of atheist.
What would it take to pursuade you of the existance of a supernatural being/ deity?
I do not consider myself a theist in the usual sense believing in a separate existent Being, that "makes the Universe like a super craftsman, like "a big judgemental one of us", but more powerful etc. I initially had this concept but eventually learnt of the development of historical Christianity, its religio-poilitical power origins and the Near eastern mindset in which it was born. I did a logical, rational sorting out of a somewhat unbelievable theology and literal subservience to an ancient sacred set of literature, and ended up thinking that it was a far too constrictive a view of whatever was the origin of existence.
I have never been an atheist. I have always thought from a very young age, and with a natural and wondrous curiosity about nature and scientific discovery that there was "something" at work to bring forth living cells and consciousness out of dust and gas. I see evolution as a slow miracle. I was fascinated, still am, with the vast astronomical heavens and what they mean.
Anyway, as the years passed I encountered mysterious phenomenon.
Psychic phenomenon. Both in myself and in others. Dreams that knew and revealed future things and connected outside themselves to facts unknown and beyond that were not known before. Scientists having similar expereinces as they struggled with deep scientific problems.
The story built up. The nature of space and time revealed by the brilliance of Albert Einstein indicated a Universe with some mighty strange qualiities. The mysterious nature of light. The way a cell operates as a highly organised purposeful unit with great complexity.
Science did not lead me away from a "transcendent" view of life but ever closer towards it. Finally the mysteries of quantum science, the possible role in some way of consciousness in manifestation of "Reality". A "thing" being in two states at once, neither existing, nor not existing. How this aligned with a deep Buddhist and Taoist phiolsophy as to the greater mysterious inexpressible nature of reality and mind. Too many leads, too many connections not to think there is a mysterious THAT, outside and within, like a Mind, of which we are a part.
I could also add other things like my mother's experieince with what could not be anything other than a UFO with mighty strange qualities one morning early, having a "cuppa". It was later reported in newspapers and never "solved". She never one was interested in such and it was out of the blue.
Friends who had numerous experinces of knowing and interconnection with others not physically present, prescience of death and danger. I think of the marked statistical blips rendered by random number generators at Global Consciousness Project prior and during the September 11 event and other events effecting large numbers of people with strong mutual strong focus.
Numerous early quantum scientists, reluctantly began to show a mystic understanding of reality, referring to Tao and Shiva symbolism.
Crop circles, the inexplicable ones, the ones that are not obviously human hoaxes. The strange qualities of the molecular breakdown of the stalks. The intricate and highly meaningful huge designs that appear in a short time. Witnessed "blue lights", sounds, of some sort.
Widely witnessed UFU encounters, including stable serious police officers and military personnel.
Check out the whole UFO phenomenon event of Phoenix.
A whole missionary community in the depths of Papua New Guinea, witnessed an encounter of some hours, related by a sober missionary. Friendly "aliens" were witnessed.
On it goes. I don't jump to interpretative conclusions of what these phenomenon mean, but that they occurred I do not doubt. They add to the mystery. As do the fact of stigmata and firewalking, and Buddhist monks that spend nights virtually naked all night in freezing mountains melting the snow where they sit in deep meditation. All substantiated
I am not a skeptic but I am well aware of the issue of human suggestion. I am trained in psychiatry and know the illnesses of mind and hallucinations and believe they are scientifically correct.
I have met numerous people who believed they were some sort of divine being. This never bothered me, as mental illness has its clear explanation at a particular level of functioning.
But alongside all this is the strange happenings for people under hypnosis, like eating a lemon like an orange and not showing any natural "sour reflex", or being operated on without any pain or anaesthetic. It is not at all cut and dried this thing called life. The full nature and connections of mind or "Mind" are not yet fully charted.
Alongside all this I was reading and exploring....Greek philosophers, Plotinus, heretic mystic Catholics and Protestants, Taoism...Buddhist philosophy...Shivite philosophy...Mystic viewpoints, shamans, dervishes and native peoples. Polynesians, aborigines. The stories were all culturally totally different yet their was a core of consistency arising from highly diverse and distant cultures throughout history, a core that was summarised by Huxley's in "The Perrenial Philosophy".
I don't believe at all that atheists are scum, but like blinkered dogmatic theists they are not allowing themselves to be open to the full expanded version of this marvelous, mysterious wonder we call Existence, Life.
May "G-d" bless all atheists.
13 Sep 11
Originally posted by TaomanThere are none of us open to the full expanded version of this marvelous,
Having sorted your reasons for the unhelpful "scum" reference in your post title I will give you my experiences and connections that leave me outside the definition of atheist.
I do not consider myself a theist in the usual sense believing in a separate existent Being, that "makes the Universe like a super craftsman, like "a big judgemental one of us", bu ...[text shortened]... nder we call Existence, Life.
May "G-d" bless all atheists.
mysterious wonder we call Existence, Life. However, as you say, the
atheist, not yet scum of the earth, are limiting themselves too much by
their attitude.
13 Sep 11
Originally posted by TaomanExcellent!!
Having sorted your reasons for the unhelpful "scum" reference in your post title I will give you my experiences and connections that leave me outside the definition of atheist.
I do not consider myself a theist in the usual sense believing in a separate existent Being, that "makes the Universe like a super craftsman, like "a big judgemental one of us", bu ...[text shortened]... nder we call Existence, Life.
May "G-d" bless all atheists.
I love when people express better what I think/feel.
And these weird experiences are hapenning more and more whereas once they only happened every blue moon.
"Time slipping" is a term that has been coined to explain this...
13 Sep 11
5 edits
Originally posted by karoly aczelSometimes I hesitate to raise the "wierd" stuff in arguments about "God" because they are not necessarily directly related, particlularly as there ere some differrent possible interpretations of the established phenomenon.
Excellent!!
I love when people express better what I think/feel.
And these weird experiences are hapenning more and more whereas once they only happened every blue moon.
"Time slipping" is a term that has been coined to explain this...
But the accumulative mysteries and events have always left me with a deep conviction that there is something much bigger and more mysterious in existence. Something, for want of a better word, transcendent.
For instance, take the UFO thing and "aliens".
It would seem to me in this immense creative Universe that such is entirely to be expected. But how do we account for the means of their appearing here, in view of our current knowledge of the immense distances involved. Is some sort of "mind travel" involved, or some other mysterious way of overcoming distance and time?
If so, what does that say about the Unseen principle or factor supporting it? Once one accepts that there is some form of emerging "encounering" going on, one has to ask these deeper questions about the nature of "Reality" and that which is beyond the simply physical - something transcendent is indicated. And so with the other type of phenomena.
One, to all appearances, credible experience was a plumber in England doing some work below a church built on an old Roman road. They had half the basement excavated. Suddenly he starts hearing sounds and then sees a Roman troop on horses and in full gear passing along this road and disappearing into the half dug out ground ahead, not as some ghostly spectre but, as if they were there! It went on for nearly ten minutes as they passed by. This simple tradesman guy (scared out of his wits) was able to give a decription of their armour, horse gear etc. that exactly aligned in detail with the descriptions of certain Roman army legions known to have been in that area, facts known only by a few academic historians. The insignia etc were very specific.
There are different ways of interpreting such phenomenon, (mind connection, or space/time anomaly) but whichever way, such things have always said to me that there is something much bigger going on here than meets the eye.
I haven't even mentioned the mind-body stuff and "miraculous" healings that occur across many different cultures, for the religious and non-religious. Or "out of body" and near death expereinces, or extreme coincidences and synchronicity, so many things all pointing, pointing.
cheers Karoly
[edits typographical]
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14 Sep 11
Originally posted by TaomanFollowing this discussion makes me wonder about the possibility that we each have a true reality, and they differ from one another, in fine or gross detail. I mean that to be taken as literally as possible. Why not? After all, many of the efforts of life (at least on this forum🙂) concern convincing another person that some aspect of our reality, is the same in their reality. But is it necessarily the case?
Sometimes I hesitate to raise the "wierd" stuff in arguments about "God" because they are not necessarily directly related, particlularly as there ere some differrent possible interpretations of the established phenomenon.
But the accumulative mysteries and events have always left me with a deep conviction that there is something much bigger and more myster ...[text shortened]... many things all pointing, pointing.
cheers Karoly
[edits typographical]
14 Sep 11
Originally posted by wolfgang59just for clarification. there are people with different ideas of supernatural.
why?
http://dictionary.reference.com/
as 'supernatural' by definition means beyond the natural scope of the universe.
given that our universe has a probability of 1, the existence of any particular universe at any particular point also has a probability of 1. ergo there are infinite universes inhabited by infinite beings. while these beings may never meet, the beings of any particular universe are necessarily supernatural to the beings of every other universe.
14 Sep 11
1 edit
Originally posted by JS357That is a very interesting comment and one that I also have pondered. I have a feeling something like that is at work. The "reality" that each individual experiences is perhaps a constantly morphing self-congruent "take or perspective", one of the "many worlds", referred to in a quantum science theory.
Following this discussion makes me wonder about the possibility that we each have a true reality, and they differ from one another, in fine or gross detail. I mean that to be taken as literally as possible. Why not? After all, many of the efforts of life (at least on this forum🙂) concern convincing another person that some aspect of our reality, is the same in their reality. But is it necessarily the case?
There is relationship and connectuion between our individual "realities", but perhaps none are final and totally "solid", but an 'awareness -construction'. It would be a resonating Whole, but an interrelated "Mandelbrot of many-world "takes" of experience.
The learning growing, challenging experiences of awareness appear to me to be central to existence and its meaning. The have a certain connectedness and stability for functional and interdependent reasons - the concept and experience of "primitive" has little meaning without the concomitant meaning/experience of "advance"d or to any duality at all.
For instance, is the experience, group or individual, of "aliens" and "ufos" (or Romans appearing) something more quantum and thought-like and real to an extent, but also with a strange "furriness" as to how it fits into our current group construction?
I like this line of thought. Sorry about all the quotation marks, but I find it unavoidable when talking in this area of the nature of the "Real".
14 Sep 11
Originally posted by JS357I think that reality for one person is not the same as it is for another. It's really upto to what we believe as to how our reality manifests.
Following this discussion makes me wonder about the possibility that we each have a true reality, and they differ from one another, in fine or gross detail. I mean that to be taken as literally as possible. Why not? After all, many of the efforts of life (at least on this forum🙂) concern convincing another person that some aspect of our reality, is the same in their reality. But is it necessarily the case?
BUT/ALSO the thing is that anything that is good for the "soul"(find a better word if you can),is bad for the ego.
This is a universal principle for all intelligent races. So the humour of this (ego dying) principle is lost on most people.
In fact , Zen is really not good for anything else other than satori. It's not going to help with "gradual" learning or healing or any other stuff.
The reason "aliens" have not landed on the White House lawn is twofold(at least😉 )-
1. Other more intelligent races are not to interfere with another planets "natural" evolution,(apparently the "greys" broke this "rule"-but that's another story). However in our case (Earth at this time), it has been revealed that if we kept going the way we were headed that we would destroy ourselves (prolly with a nuclear war). Some fifth dimensional races that were concerned about wasting the potential of the human race asked "higher powers" if they could intervene in a subtle way so as to steer our evolution back on track.
They did recieve permission because, the way we were going, no one was going to make it. Not one. (ie.become enlightened). If only one person was to become enlightened then permission would not have been given. Hence crop circles,ufo sightings,etc.
(In fact they did approach the U.S. government (in the 50's) to implore the government to make some positive changes in the interests of evolution. Long story short, they (the E.T.'s) said that "all they wanted were the lollies (drugs?) )
Lol, sounds about right to me.
2. If we were to see an alien face to face we would prolly freak out so much that it would hinder rather than help their,(and our) cause. After all, we are frightened by different races on our own planet, let alone encountering beings that are not even humanoid.(I met an "alien" in a dream and I was totally freaked out, but now I understand that this was the only way to start revealing the "whole truth"
(I know that this explanation is not satisfactory for many as it raises more questions than it answers, for starters. But I understand why they did it like that.
Gotta run, will add more later if anyone's interested
14 Sep 11
Originally posted by TaomanFrom a scientific standpoint, it is entirely probable that there is other life in the universe. We cant really say accurately how probable other intelligent life is, but I wouldn't rule it out.
For instance, take the UFO thing and "aliens".
It would seem to me in this immense creative Universe that such is entirely to be expected. But how do we account for the means of their appearing here, in view of our current knowledge of the immense distances involved. Is some sort of "mind travel" involved, or some other mysterious way of overcoming distance and time?
But to jump from "UFO" to "alien" is unscientific. It is based on culture not science. To assume a UFO is of alien origin fits well with the movies, but not with science.
It is more likely that a UFO or other phenomena usually labelled 'alien' is of earthly origin. In some cases the best explanation is in the head of the observer, in others it could be something like secret military operations etc.
Even if you were contacted telepathically by some being, if the telepathy is real, it is more reasonable to assume that the origin is some man made machine than that the source is aliens (or God).