Jesus said, “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. But he who endures to the end shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come."
(Matthew 24:9-14 NKJV)
The above sounds like that no one will be saved until the end when Jesus returns in glory to gather His elect. So in this present time we must rely on a hope of salvation, like the apostle Paul said, through belief and faith.
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Originally posted by JS357Further thought: These questions have been asked and answered numerous times, so I think I'll drop out of this thread.
OK thanks for that response. Another question is, are there signs that we humans can see, by which Christians can tell who is, and who is not, a Christian?
Actually, a question prior to this is, is it at all important, that Christians be able to tell them apart?
Finally, do you really know you are a Christian? If so, how?
It is my opinion that there are very few if any real Christians out there.
Quite simply put a christian is one who follows the teachings and
examples shown by the man who was called Jesus the Christ.
I would subscribe to his teachings as they are designed to be
for the benefit of human kind. Nothing in there could be considered
to be harmful or bad. You would not be doing any harm or wrong
by following those teachings. Being helpful to your neighbour can
only bring benefits. We all need to help each other to make a better
community or a better world.
But am I a Christian?
No. Why?
because I don't believe that I would have the courage to act in that
manner when it was considered to be a bad idea to act in that way
and so draw attention to myself from people who would seek to
harm me for following in that chosen path.
All of the 12 who were with Jesus lacked the courage that he
showed. All of them fell by the wayside when they were put to
the test.
I would fail too because I am weak.
I am willing to wager my life when I say you all are too.
Those of you who call yourselves Christians would not hesitate to
abandon your post or your friends or your family if things got too
hairy.
Especially the Americans. The so called most evangelized nation on earth
and yet you won't give up your guns and stand up like true peacemakers.
You want to keep your guns and forget about the fifth commandment.
So to conclude, it's my humble opinion that there are NO true Christians out there.
If your back was put to the wall I do not believe that you would die
rather than renounce your Christianity.
Hypocrites all of you.
I was born Mormon...
...wasted too much time trying to convince "Christians" that I was one too...
(I called myself a Christian based on my belief in Jesus Christ--and I'm still down with him...he's "just alright with me," someone I'd hang out with)
These days...I'm happy when I'm a decent HUman.
Originally posted by hakimaThat there now is the real target.
I was born Mormon...
...wasted too much time trying to convince "Christians" that I was one too...
(I called myself a Christian based on my belief in Jesus Christ--and I'm still down with him...he's "just alright with me," someone I'd hang out with)
These days...I'm happy when I'm a decent HUman.
That is what we should all try to strive to be, decent human beings.
Do others a good turn without them having to ask and sure enough
they will feel good about it and probably return the favour.
You don't have to be a good Christian, Mormon, Jew, Buddhist, Muslim or atheist
to live by that sort of a code.
The sooner we all do it the better. Help one another not kill one another.
OK we are all from different countries but we are all one human family.
Forget religion and hatred. Come together with good thoughts and feelings
for your fellow human being. If we all acted like that then the world would
be a better place.
Originally posted by rwingettHere's a question for you.
Not to split hairs, but it has long been my contention that no one is born as anything (i.e. everyone is an implicit atheist at birth). They are subsequently taught to become whatever it is that their parents are (Mormon in your case).
Seeing as you spoke about we are not born Mormon, Catholic, whatever.
Are some people born gay?
Or do you believe this is a personal choice they make later?
I am not gay by the way, I'm just asking.
Originally posted by rwingettVery good point...and an important hair to split. It suggests that human beings can break free from traditions that aren't effective.
Not to split hairs, but it has long been my contention that no one is born as anything (i.e. everyone is an implicit atheist at birth). They are subsequently taught to become whatever it is that their parents are (Mormon in your case).
I was extremely lucky to have liberal Mormon (a rarity) parents, who encourage(d) open discussion (they still do) and acceptance of their (8) kids, however they chose to look at the world.
Originally posted by johnnylongwoodyI'm not certain. Genetics probably has a certain degree of influence on sexual orientation, but I doubt that's the sole determinant.
Here's a question for you.
Seeing as you spoke about we are not born Mormon, Catholic, whatever.
Are some people born gay?
Or do you believe this is a personal choice they make later?
I am not gay by the way, I'm just asking.
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Every forum has a handful or more, so-called "former Christians." People who claim they were faithful believers (usually during childhood while they lived under their parents' roof). The Reformed Christian doctrine (which I adhere to) explicitly denies this possibility.
What also should be noted is that there exists people who had a relationship with Jesus as a young person. Then they went away from the faith assuming that naivete is waring off.
Latter in life they come back to Jesus amazed that the Jesus they knew as a child has become just as real to them in latter adulthood.
Backsliders can leave the faith and return again surprised that God had never ceased to be true. God did for a time cease to be real to their experience.
As objectively as possible I tried to analyze the claim and see if I could come up with a viable reason why it is said to happen. Generally speaking, the typical self-proclaimed "former Christian" will say they aren't Christian anymore because they grew up, started thinking for themselves, and realized the ridiculousness of it all.
Sometimes a believer will stop having fellowship with God.
It could be a sin that they cannot part with that becomes an insulation hindering personal fellowship with the Father.
Every human who comes to God has some kind of contraversy with God eventually. That is because God is simply into transforming the souls of believers.
A person may decide that a certain area of their heart is "off limits" to God.
Fellowship fades. The person can ever forget what communing with God was like. And arguments influence them that they never knew God at all.
The Apostle Paul spoke of co-workers who made "shipwreck" of their faith. They even went from being Christian workers to blasphemers of some kind:
"Holding faith and a good conscience, concerning which some, thrusting these away, have become shipwrecked regarding the faith;
Of whom are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have delivered to Satan that they may be disciplined not to blaspheme." (1 Timothy 1:19,20)
Hymenaeus and Alexander must have been colleagues of Paul. They were sloppy about keeping a clean conscience. They thrusted aside the need to keep short accounts with God. Perhaps they had cherished sins that they refused to turn over to the Lord's liberation.
The offenses against their consciences caused their faith to leak out. Their faith leaked away until they became "shipwrecked" backslidden Christians and even angry blasphemers against God.
The turning them over to Satan to be disciplined does not mean the loss of their eternal salvation. But it did involve some kind of disciplinary suffering to awake them out of their stupor.
" ... I have delivered to Satan that they may be disciplined not to blaspheme."
Likewise, Paul spoke of a certain Demas who apparently left the service of the apostles because he found the present world too attractive:
" ... Demas has abandoned me, having loved this present age, and has gone to Thessalonica ..." (2 Timothy 4:10)
The Bible has plenty of examples of those who seemed to depart from following God. The biggest example may be Peter, the leading of the twelve disciples. In the heat of persecution he denied his Lord three times, even with cursing.
So there is very little that surprises the familar Bible reader.
Part of the problem is that some people think to arrive at being a Christian is the only end in itself. But to Christ just becoming a believer was not the end of it all. He desires that each believer would become an overcoming believer. That is a believer becomming victorious against the adversity of life in the surrounding world.
"He who overcomes ..." (See Rev. 2:7,11,17, 26; 3:5, 12, 21)
That is the promise by Christ of some reward in addition to the free gift of eternal life. That is a kingdom reward for having been a prevailing believer, a victorious believer, an overcoming believer.
This as opposed to being a defeated believer. Every backslider and every true Christian who now claims to be no longer a follower of Jesus is some kind of defeated brother or sister who was overcome by something.
If they were really born of God they can never become unborn of God. God has a long time to work with them and bring them around again. They cannot lose the gift of salvation. They may lose though, the reward of the millennial kingdom.
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Originally posted by johnnylongwoodyWe now know that some traits are genetically "permitted" but their expression is not triggered without a stimulus from their environment. If that stimulus is lacking, the trait is not expressed. Whichever environmental stimulus occurs will trigger its corresponding trait.
Here's a question for you.
Seeing as you spoke about we are not born Mormon, Catholic, whatever.
Are some people born gay?
Or do you believe this is a personal choice they make later?
I am not gay by the way, I'm just asking.
It is possible that populations unconsciously "adjust" to changing circumstances by increasing or decreasing the turning on or off of certain traits. For example, a population under stress due to too much population for its sustenance may benefit from having more people whose homosexual traits have been triggered. It just so happens that the morality of the Old Testament was developed in a people who had the opposite stress on population -- although it was not entirely controlled by underpopulation, after all, laws and violent punishments are not established to prevent what nobody wants to do anyway.
There are scholarly articles on the subject for those interested, by searching on the evolution of homosexuality.
One is:
http://www.fed.cuhk.edu.hk/~lchang/material/Evolutionary/Evo%20homosexual.pdf
But this discussion would be best moved to Science, if a discussion is to have more than a snowball's chance in hell of being rational.
Originally posted by johnnylongwoodyIn ancient Greece and Sparta they seem to have been all genetically predisposed to being gay. 😛
Here's a question for you.
Seeing as you spoke about we are not born Mormon, Catholic, whatever.
Are some people born gay?
Or do you believe this is a personal choice they make later?
I am not gay by the way, I'm just asking.
Originally posted by sumydidDo a quick Google for "Atheist Priests" and you will find a whole load of people who lost their faith well into adulthood.
Every forum has a handful or more, so-called "former Christians." People who claim they were faithful believers (usually during childhood while they lived under their parents' roof). The Reformed Christian doctrine (which I adhere to) explicitly denies this possibility.
As objectively as possible I tried to analyze the claim and see if I could come up w ...[text shortened]... or you all. It's a sincere question and this is not a "trap" thread.
Thank you!
Presumably these people must have been 'true Christians'?
--- Penguin.
