free will

Originally posted by Conrau K
You are saying God is outside of time. As many people have tried to explain this doesn't make sense and most christians would not agree with you.

Why doesn't it make sense? . If time had a beginning then what came before? We're going back to the something from nothing debate. At some point you have to resign yourself to stepping off the "every has to make sense" bank and jump in the water. Unless you think something from nothing makes sense.

God is present in this universe which has a passage of time through it , but he is not trapped or limited by it, just as a sphere exists in 2 dimensions in a way (and could be seen as a circle) but is also present in 3 dimensions so is not limited by 2 dimensional space. Time in any case is not a 'thing' as such in the same way a tree is a thing. You cannot put time in a testube and break down it's molecular structure , so what on earth do you mean by time?

Most Christians would not agree with what exactly? That God is eternal? That God knows the past and future with equal accuracy? I think you are surely mistaken! Do you think it is part of Christian belief that God is moving through time like us and does not transcend time (and the universe) ? This sounds like some bizarre sect you are talking about!

Originally posted by knightmeister
Why doesn't it make sense? . If time had a beginning then what came before? We're going back to the something from nothing debate. At some point you have to resign yourself to stepping off the "every has to make sense" bank and jump in the water. Unless you think something from nothing makes sense.

God is present in this universe which has a passag ...[text shortened]... scend time (and the universe) ? This sounds like some bizarre sect you are talking about!

But would he still be omniscient?

Originally posted by Conrau K
But would he still be omniscient?

If you think that God is not omnipotent because he can't create a rock so heavy that he can't lift it then you will also think God is not omniscient because he doesn't know what we will do until he creates us. But unless you can think of a way that God can create real free will but still know what's going to happen before he even creates then it's a pointless question.

The issues here is 'how omniscient is God' if you like. He knows everything he needs to know and that's relevant , but because he has become restricted by the limitations of what he has chosen to do (ie create real free will) you then say "ahh, but he's not totally omniscient then" and think you have struck some critical blow. However , unless you can show how this is relevant to anything and can show how God is restricted by something more omniscient or omnipotent than himself then it's a bit limp to be honest.
I personally don't have any problem with God not being able to entirely predict what his free creations will do. I think it's completely consistent with his omniscience as it would be illogical for it to be any other way, just as it would be illogical for God to create a rock so heavy he can't lift.

So if he's not totally omniscient because he's chosen for things to be that way why is that a problem for you? At any time he could have snapped his fingers and done it differently. You might as well ask "why did God , if he's all powerful , become a carpenter and lead such a rag taggle band of nobodys and get himself killed when he could have made himself an Emperor and dictated Christianity to us".

Originally posted by knightmeister
If you think that God is not omnipotent because he can't create a rock so heavy that he can't lift it then you will also think God is not omniscient because he doesn't know what we will do until he creates us. But unless you can think of a way that God can create real free will but still know what's going to happen before he even creates then it's a po ...[text shortened]... when he could have made himself an Emperor and dictated Christianity to us".

If God cannot know the outcome before his created the universe, he could not know his own future.

So God is omniscient concerning our own futures, yet he is not omniscient of his own future?

I find that to be a problem.

Maybe its the language we are using again. You said you wouldn't use the words "before" or "after" when talking about God since he exists outside of time.

Originally posted by Conrau K
If God cannot know the outcome before his created the universe, he could not know his own future.

So God is omniscient concerning our own futures, yet he is not omniscient of his own future?

I find that to be a problem.

Maybe its the language we are using again. You said you wouldn't use the words "before" or "after" when talking about God since he exists outside of time.

Firstly , I did not say you can't use words like before or after , I only pointed out that when we use these words they are not to be taken literally (ie with a pinch of salt). When I use them I am fully aware of their inadequacies and am using them advisedly and metaphorically. If you can suggest a more adequate set of words then I will use them.

How is he not omniscient of his own future? I have implied that he is not able to know what you do with your life UNLESS (better word?) he creates you in the first place (sound logical enough?) . I have implied that he has set aspects of his universe free (and not determined). However , I reckon he still knows how he intends to respond. Are you suggesting that God does not know his own mind? Or second guesses himself? How is that implied from God not knowing what you might do tomorrow? The universe is not God , neither are you.

I wonder if you are suggesting that he doesn't know who will/did choose him and share heaven with him until he creates them so therefore he doesn't know his own future. If he knew his own future though , that would mean he would be able to step outside of himself and watch himself making decisions in the 'future' ?
There comes a point when you have to embrace the mystery and accept that unless you can somehow penetrate deep into eternity you will never make full sense of it. It's unlikely that eternity would make complete sense to us anyway. If your contention is that you want every single t crossing and i dotted in order to be able to accept any of my points then I can't help you.

All I can say is that the idea of God allowing his omniscient and omnipotent qualities to be restricted is consistent with the idea of God making himself vulnerable. In creating us he allows the possibility of having his heart broken (because he loves us) if we turn away from him In giving us free will he allows the possibility of unpredictability and so he is equally vulnerable. It seems paradoxical that God can know and not know at the same time. That he can be all powerful and weak at the same time. In order for this to be so there would have to be at least two parts of God , one who knows and one who doesn't. I think this turns out to be an argument for the Trinity. There are examples in the Bible when Christ says that he does not know "the appointed time" but "only the father knows". He also gets surprised by the centurion's faith (God surprised ? What's this?). You might also find this a 'problem' , so there you go , to me it's a mystery to be contemplated but one that can only be partially penetrated though.