24 May 06
Originally posted by Conrau KWhat on earth do you mean 'was decided' ? Was decided by whom ? Not God , he was only watching you from a different dimension. decided by what then? Surely you are confusing God 'knowing' with God 'deciding'!!!
[b]if God is omniscient then my future was decided before I was even born.
In a way you're right , your future was decided .... BY YOU . You are making free decisions right now in the future but you can't get there yet. God can get there and still be around before your birth all at the same 'time' , but it is still YOU deciding. He just watches all the decisions you are making in one eternal moment or over a trillion years if he prefers.
24 May 06
Originally posted by ChurlantProphecy has been around since the Fall in the Garden. At the time of utterance, prophecy is generally enigmatic for those to whom it is given. For instance, it is difficult to conceive of the very specific events of the Tribulation as going unrecognized by the folks living through those times... for us, at least.
This is where Bible prophesy comes in. Man does know the future, to a certain extent, imagining such prophesy is genuine.
-JC
How hard, after all, would it be to see the resemblance between the mark of the beast spoken of in John's Revelation, and people walking around with "666" on their foreheads and/or forearms? For us, it's a slam dunk, given the constant exposure to such information, as well as the long-standing access to biblical information overall.
But who is to say when those events take place that a popular knowledge of biblical prophecy will still exist?
24 May 06
Originally posted by FreakyKBHYou can't seriously be suggesting that Christian scripture and history, both spanning numerous millennia, will somehow be driven underground to a point where only the rarest of individuals knows of end times prophesy?
But who is to say when those events take place that a popular knowledge of biblical prophecy will still exist?
-JC
25 May 06
Originally posted by Conrau KAnd yet another way of looking at it.....
I'm not sure. If God knows our future (and he must with complete certainty to be omniscient) then we can only act one way. God's knoweldge of the future implies that the future is predetermined.
There are thousands of different things you could decide to do tomorrow (if you have the day off!) and right now the future is uncertain anything can still happen. However , it makes no difference to God which choice you make , he will still know what you are 'going to do' in the future because he is there watching it . So if you make choice 6578 he will know , if you make choice 2349 he will know... etc etc.
He doesn't NEED your action to be pre-determined in order to know the future. YOU would NEED to know but he doesn't , his omniscience relies on his eternity NOT on pre-determination , whereas you would NEED pre-determination in order to know the future. You can't just project your own understanding of time on to God , you need to try and look at it from a different angle. Whatever you choose tomorrow he will know it because he is there right now. Do anything you like , he can't not know it!
25 May 06
Originally posted by knightmeisterYes, but how does God know it? Does God know it because God made
And yet another way of looking at it.....
There are thousands of different things you could decide to do tomorrow (if you have the day off!) and right now the future is uncertain anything can still happen. However , it makes no difference to God which choice you make , he will still know what you are 'going to do' in the future because he is there ...[text shortened]... e will know it because he is there right now. Do anything you like , he can't not know it!
you act the way you want to act, or does God know it simply, because
you have the free will to make a choice, and He is there as you make
it? I go with the ladder, since the scripture suggests as much! We are
the ones making our choices, God knows because He is there.
Kelly
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26 May 06
Originally posted by knightmeister1) God is creator (we'll just assume that for the point of this argument).
No , your future was not decided for you , you decided it (at least the parts you had control over). The only way God can know your future is because you decide your future , he sort of knows what you are 'going to' decide to do. He knows your future but not 'before' you do but at the time you do it but because the time you do it and the time 3 years b ...[text shortened]... 's more to do with time travel and dimensions than 'pre' determination
2) God is omniscient.
3) There is only one future.
God knew my future before I was born, and he created the universe with an omniscient knowledge of its future. So he did decide my future.
And no matter in what time you place God in, so long as he knew my future before I did, there could be no free will.
And since God is omniscient he doesn't "sort of know" or have a vague idea of what my decision will be know. He must know it as a solid fact.
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26 May 06
Originally posted by knightmeisterHe's not just watching. He knows my action.
Here's yet another way of looking at it. Let's say you are making a decision right now at this exact moment , how does God know what decision you are making ? Presumably you would argue that he just watches the said decision. Does his watching you make your decision any less free than if you were unwatched? Those around you would also know what decisio ...[text shortened]... o be on every single point on the timeline whereas we are restricted to one point at a time
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26 May 06
Originally posted by knightmeisterThis just demonstrates a lack of understanding of quantum mechanics (light is not a wave and a particle, it just behaves like a wave and a particle. At the quantum level scientists realise that we cannot use analogies such as a ball hitting wall to explain reflection and then guessing that light must be a ball. This is just skewed logic). There is no contradiction in QM, just counter-inutuitive maths supported by myriads observations.
Quantum physics says that some quantum particles can be at two different places in the universe at the same time(duh?) It also says light is both a wave and particle at the same time.
If you accept that quantum physics is not self-contradictory and can be reconciled , why would you throw out the idea of free will and omniscience being irreconcilable just because it makes your head hurt a bit?
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26 May 06
Originally posted by knightmeisterIf God knew my future before I was born, how exactly could I have free will? My fate was decided (and I am using the word loosely here) before I was conceived, in fact it was determined at the inception of the universe. The word 'God' comes to mind....
What on earth do you mean 'was decided' ? Was decided by whom ? Not God , he was only watching you from a different dimension. decided by what then? Surely you are confusing God 'knowing' with God 'deciding'!!!
In a way you're right , your future was decided .... BY YOU . You are making free decisions right now in the future but you can't get there ...[text shortened]... sions you are making in one eternal moment or over a trillion years if he prefers.[/b]
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26 May 06
1 edit
Originally posted by knightmeisterFree will requires that I could do more then one action. I could do this or that, or do that or not that. However, if God is omniscient, then my future is determined. I might like that future, it might be my decision, but the fact remains that at any time I could only act in one way. I could not do this or that. Thus, I could not have free will.
And yet another way of looking at it.....
There are thousands of different things you could decide to do tomorrow (if you have the day off!) and right now the future is uncertain anything can still happen. However , it makes no difference to God which choice you make , he will still know what you are 'going to do' in the future because he is there e will know it because he is there right now. Do anything you like , he can't not know it!
EDIT: And the fact he knows your future makes it predetermined.
26 May 06
1 edit
Originally posted by Conrau KWhat the??? Is this some sort of new logic you're peddling here? It's certainly not a syllogism. How does 3) follow from 1) and 2)? You're gonna really need to do better than this.
1) God is creator (we'll just assume that for the point of this argument).
2) God is omniscient.
3) There is only one future.
God knew my future before I was born, and he created the universe with an omniscient knowledge of its future. So he did decide my future.
And no matter in what time you place God in, so long as he knew my future before I now" or have a vague idea of what my decision will be know. He must know it as a solid fact.
26 May 06
Originally posted by Conrau KA fine example of the post hoc logical fallacy. God's knowing about an action does not infer his causing the action. How hard is this to grasp?
Free will requires that I could do more then one action. I could do this or that, or do that or not that. However, if God is omniscient, then my future is determined. I might like that future, it might be my decision, but the fact remains that at any time I could only act in one way. I could not do this or that. Thus, I could not have free will.
EDIT: And the fact he knows your future makes it predetermined.
...it might be my decision...[t]hus, I could not have free will.
Ahem. Cough! Could you explain how you sustain this obvious contradiction in your argument? Equivocation perhaps?
26 May 06
Originally posted by Conrau KAnd the fact he knows your future makes it predetermined.
Free will requires that I could do more then one action. I could do this or that, or do that or not that. However, if God is omniscient, then my future is determined. I might like that future, it might be my decision, but the fact remains that at any time I could only act in one way. I could not do this or that. Thus, I could not have free will.
EDIT: And the fact he knows your future makes it predetermined.
Only if you can prove that God is somehow constrained to time-space flux like we are. Good luck.
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27 May 06
Originally posted by HalitoseThey're premises. Sorry, no syllogisms. Haven't you made this comment before? My conclusion follows from those three points.
What the??? Is this some sort of new logic you're peddling here? It's certainly not a syllogism. How does 3) follow from 1) and 2)? You're gonna really need to do better than this.