05 May 13
1 edit
Originally posted by stellspalfieI believe the idea here is that Lucifer began to think too highly of himself because of his beauty and his position as the annointed cherub at the throne of God. He wanted more authority and apparently believed he deserved the love that God was giving to man by allowing man to be the one in the Garden of Eden to rule the Earth creatures instead of him.
this doesnt answer anything, it just repeats the fact that he became evil. why did he become evil? why was iniquity found? how did it get there? god said he was originally perfect! so what happened and why?
These emotional desires began to effect his mind in such a way that he decided to use deception in order to get God to look with disfavor on man, so that he could replace man. After all, he believed he should be the one to rule the creatures on the Earth instead of man, because man was created a little lower than the angels and he was top dog among the angels at that time.
But God's Holy Spirit is able to search out all things and Lucifer's deception was found out and Lucifer lost favor with God as well, and God held Lucifer more responsible for the sins than the man. However, God had already told man of the punishment for disobeying and God could not go back on His word or He would be a liar Himself.
05 May 13
Originally posted by sonshipWhat do you mean by "define"?
Define "responsible".
Define "bad".
Define "things".
Define "us"
Define "freedom" just for starters.
And by the time you do all that I'm sure we can get you sidetracked off arguing so many issues your original post will evaporate under obfuscation.
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06 May 13
again!!! you are not addressing the route cause of the development of his negative characteristics. you are merely stating that he had them because he was vain or whatever.
why was he vain? if god created him perfect (thats also while he had free will) where did his vanity come from. other anger may have been beautiful, why didnt they become vain?
where do negative feelings come from?
06 May 13
1 edit
Originally posted by stellspalfieLucifer had a mind that allowed him to think and meditate and he chose to think on inappropriate things until he desired to act on those thoughts. It is no different than a man who chooses to think about having sex with another man's wife until his desire causes him to commit the sin of adultry. There is an example of that with King David in the Holy Bible.
again!!! you are not addressing the route cause of the development of his negative characteristics. you are merely stating that he had them because he was vain or whatever.
why was he vain? if god created him perfect (thats also while he had free will) where did his vanity come from. other anger may have been beautiful, why didnt they become vain?
where do negative feelings come from?
06 May 13
Originally posted by stellspalfieThe thing that causes one to choose to do either good or evil is free will.
apparently god is not responsible for the bad things people do. apparently 'freewill' gives us the freedom to do good or bad things.
so, if we all have 'freewill' what causes some of us to turn bad and some not? it doesnt seem to be random.
But the problem is much more insidious than merely choosing to do good or bad.
The knowledge of good and evil isn't so much about knowing the difference between good and evil. It's has more to do with setting one's self up as the judge about what is good or evil.
Therein lies the beast you see. When one judges for themselves what they think is good or evil, they place themselves above God.
God is the righteous judge and we are subject to vanity.
Now you decide whether or not you are going to believe God or go your own way. That is the answer to your question.
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06 May 13
Originally posted by RJHindsyou suggest it was his mind? what was is about his mind that made him choose evil?
Lucifer had a mind that allowed him to think and meditate and he chose to think on inappropriate things until he desired to act on those thoughts. It is no different than a man who chooses to think about having sex with another man's wife until his desire causes him to commit the sin of adultry. There is an example of that with King David in the Holy Bible.
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06 May 13
Originally posted by josephwwe all have freewill, why do some choose good and some choose evil?
The thing that causes one to choose to do either good or evil is free will.
But the problem is much more insidious than merely choosing to do good or bad.
The knowledge of good and evil isn't so much about knowing the difference between good and evil. It's has more to do with setting one's self up as the judge about what is good or evil.
Therein li ...[text shortened]... or not you are going to believe God or go your own way. That is the answer to your question.
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06 May 13
4 edits
Let us take our stand in thought before creation and ponder the alternatives that God shall
(a) not create anything, but shall continue in His own Divine sufficiency and solitariness, the triune God:
(b) that He shall create only such beings as shall move automatically in the line of His will, without any possibility of deviating from it: or
(c) that He shall grant to angels and men the royal dignity of freedom of choice and action, though He foresaw that many of them would abuse this freedom and rebel against Him, with dire and endless results.
... The deepest factor known to us is that freedom of choice once conferred is never withdrawn by the Creator. He persuades but does not coerce; so that He will have to say, with infinite pathos, "I would ... but ye would not" (Matt. 23.37): and the rebel can assure his own ruin, as Israel did at that time. That situation involved the appalling catastrophe of destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70, with all its horrors. Seeing that the wisdom and love of God permitted that awful result of human guilt, and seeing that is only one out of innumerable examples of the severity of God, it becomes presunptuous to declare that He must set a limit to His wrath in the future."
[G.H. Lang, The Last Assize, Conley & Schoettle, pg. 19 ]
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07 May 13
Originally posted by sonshipthis just confirms that god gave us freewill. it doesnt address why some people choose good and some bad.Let us take our stand in thought before creation and ponder the alternatives that God shall
(a) not create anything, but shall continue in His own Divine sufficiency and solitariness, the triune God:
(b) that He shall create only such beings as shall move automatically in the line of His will, without any possibility of deviating from it: or ...[text shortened]... wrath in the future."
[G.H. Lang, The Last Assize, Conley & Schoettle, pg. 19 ]
07 May 13
Originally posted by stellspalfieAs in the case of Satan, we have the knowledge of good and evil, so we can chose to think on good things, which is likely to cause us to do good, or we can choose to think on evil things, with the likelihood that it will result in our acting on those evil thoughts in the mind.
this just confirms that god gave us freewill. it doesnt address why some people choose good and some bad.
The Instructor
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07 May 13
Originally posted by RJHindswhy did he have bad thoughts rather than good? because of his mind? what was it about his mind that produced bad thoughts?
They were bad thoughts because they were proud, arrogant, and puffed up thoughts that did not lead to humble actions that God considers good, like service to God.
The Instructor
07 May 13
1 edit
Originally posted by stellspalfieI told you already. Since Lucifer already had the knowledge of good and evil and he was made perfect by God and given free will to think what thoughts he chose, it was his free will to choose his thoughts.
why did he have bad thoughts rather than good? because of his mind? what was it about his mind that produced bad thoughts?
The Holy Bible points out that he was aware of his beauty and splendor and his position of prominence at the throne of God as the covering cherub. However, while thinking on these things that were not inherently bad, he also noticed that God was preoccupied with man and showed man love and gave him dominion over the creatures of the earth. Previous to this, Lucifer had been the head of the heavenly spirit creatures, but now a creature that was made a little lower than the angels was being given dominion over all the earth creatures instead of him. So much jealousy of the man arose in Lucifer's thoughts that his self-pride and self-worth were being questioned within his mind and his constant thinking on these matters led to his thoughts of actions to deceive man into sinning against God so that he could replace man as the ruler of the earth creatures and everything snowballed from there. If you don't get that explanation, then I am afraid I will be unable to help you.
The Instructor