freewill..........again

do you have examples of the various different outcomes?

I have indications of the vastness of God's dealings. Surpises are there.

Moses not being allowed to enter the Promise Land. But how could that be?

Solomon requesting that God give him wisdom. Such a noble request which made God very happy. Yet in latter years he is drawn away into idolatry by his 600 wives.

How about David, a man after God's own heart. Yet he conspires to steal a man's wife, conceal his adultery with her and arranges to have the husband murdered.

Yet Jesus in Revelation is called "the Root and Offspring of David" . Why not eradicating the name David from the whole Bible instead for what he did ?

Surprises.

Then there is the warning of Jesus that some of the Sodomites will in a sense rise at the last judgment and say to those towns which rejected Jesus - "What WAS it with you people ?? "

Not sure how God will work that one out.

Ever read about the cross handed blessing of Jacob ?
He crossed his hands to bless his sons for he had learned that in his own life the second came in first and the first came in behind the second.

Then there is the New Jerusalem consisting of the sons of God. Yet around the New Jerusalem are the nations walking in her light yet who are not the inhabitants of the eternal city.

We can expect some mighty surprises. Having forewarned us of this God is still obligated to show the polar ultimate of the best destiny and the worst destiny.

It is just beyond me how anyone can think there is a god who actually listens to their prayers for a football team to win or their daughter to get onto the cheer leading team.

Rather immature children may ask for foolish things from a wise parent. It doesn't mean that the parent does not exist.

When I was a child I heard that the planets were made of "swirling gases."
So I went outside, got the gas can for the lawn mower and swirled it around. I was hoping that "swirling gases" would make a planet for me.

Incomplete understanding does not make the thing not well understood non-existent.

Originally posted by sonship
When I was a child I heard that the planets were made of "swirling gases."
So I went outside, got the gas can for the lawn mower and swirled it around. I was hoping that "swirling gases" would make a planet for me.

Incomplete understanding does not make the thing not well understood non-existent.

Actually, in your example, the planet you imagined was non-existent.
Incorrect understanding does make the thing imagined non-existent.

Originally posted by stellspalfie
apparently god is not responsible for the bad things people do. apparently 'freewill' gives us the freedom to do good or bad things.

so, if we all have 'freewill' what causes some of us to turn bad and some not? it doesnt seem to be random.

you just answered your question. freewill is in fact what causes some to turn good or bad and is the reason why we have "good" and "evil".

and it isn't random. "being bad" in various degrees and various circumstances is what makes sense from a logical point of view or at the very least as a short term strategy.

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
you just answered your question. freewill is in fact what causes some to turn good or bad and is the reason why we have "good" and "evil".

and it isn't random. "being bad" in various degrees and various circumstances is what makes sense from a logical point of view or at the very least as a short term strategy.

we all have freewill in common, yet we all take different paths. so there is something else other than freewill that causes us to do good or bad. i dont think its possible to say free will 'causes' anything, i think it 'allows' things.

Originally posted by stellspalfie
we all have freewill in common, yet we all take different paths. so there is something else other than freewill that causes us to do good or bad. i dont think its possible to say free will 'causes' anything, i think it 'allows' things.

i think i understand what you misunderstood (semantics really). freewill "causes" us to turn good or bad, but "allows" us to do good or bad. one can do good without turning good, and can do bad without (necessarily) turning bad.


i see each choice we make dependant on the value we associate to the consequence and after that, adjusted by various modifiers, fear, conscience , social acceptance, etc. so there isn't something that makes us to do good or bad, there are a lot of things. freewill comes into how we keep adjusting these modifiers. it is what makes someone willing to abstain farting in an elevator one day and let it rip another day.

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
i think i understand what you misunderstood (semantics really). freewill "causes" us to turn good or bad, but "allows" us to do good or bad. one can do good without turning good, and can do bad without (necessarily) turning bad.


i see each choice we make dependant on the value we associate to the consequence and after that, adjusted by various modif ...[text shortened]... makes someone willing to abstain farting in an elevator one day and let it rip another day.

what i want to know from the theists is where does the first bad thought come from for somebody like satan.

they say freewill made him evil and when i ask why, they say because he was vain and jealous. which is the same as saying he was evil because he was evil.

so good and evil (i hate to use these terms) in the case of satan comes from something else outside of freewill, that something must have been created by god. thus giving us a paradox of a good god doesnt create evil and god is good.