Originally posted by karoly aczelyou need to learn some bush tucker skills mate!
I have ventured to the outback, if thats what you mean.
Ususally hitch-hiking with my guitar.
One thing I'll say about the pig shooters out there, at least they got the "rednack pragmatism" down pat.
They might hate people like me, but with such huge distances between "towns" , and such a long time between cars,it would take a very mean person to not give you a lift.
Originally posted by robbie carrobieGod has been termed masculine because masculine is the default gender of the English language. Many of God's attributes are feminine in the original languages. Serious Jewish scholars view god as gender nuetral. After all were men AND women not made in God's image?
ok, do you think there have been attempts through popular culture to obscure the differences between men and women though? Do you think that God in being termed masculine demonstrates a gender bias on the part of the Bible writers? if so how so? if not, why not?
Originally posted by RJHindsThe problem with that kind of literal thinking is this: If even one thing is proven wrong, then the entire work becomes suspect.
I think it is all true, word for word.
The bible is literal in some parts and not in others. When Christ taught by parable, was he being literal? of course not. The bible is the word of God, not the words of God...big difference.
Originally posted by Dowardyes but so what? i have stated nothing to the contrary. Have i not in fact stated that God has no gender? I dont think it is as simple as linguistics as you have assumed, Christ himself for example is termed , 'eternal father', not simply because it is expedient to do so, but because there are certain attributes attached to the term father, in this instance. It is also the same with the Almighty. Yes men and women are made in Gods image, but that is neither here nor there, the question is, is it gender bias to term God in the masculine, i say no!
God has been termed masculine because masculine is the default gender of the English language. Many of God's attributes are feminine in the original languages. Serious Jewish scholars view god as gender nuetral. After all were men [b]AND women not made in God's image?[/b]
Originally posted by robbie carrobieNor is it biased (or incorrect) to term God as feminine. The truth is God is niether. God is truth and Spirit (John 4:24).
yes but so what? i have stated nothing to the contrary. Have i not in fact stated that God has no gender? I dont think it is as simple as linguistics as you have assumed, Christ himself for example is termed , 'eternal father', not simply because it is expedient to do so, but because there are certain attributes attached to the term father, in this ...[text shortened]... her here nor there, the question is, is it gender bias to term God in the masculine, i say no!
Originally posted by Doward(Exodus 15:3) . . .Jehovah is a manly person of war. Jehovah is his name.
Nor is it biased (or incorrect) to term God as feminine. The truth is God is niether. God is truth and Spirit (John 4:24).
(Isaiah 42:13) . . .Like a mighty man Jehovah himself will go forth. Like a warrior he will awaken zeal. . .
(Mark 14:36) . . .And he went on to say: “Abba, Father, all things are possible to you; remove this cup from me. Yet not what I want, but what you want.”
ok, how would you therefore translate these verses?
You tell yourself whatever you need to in order to square it with your conscience Robbie.
The gender bias within biblical scripture is quite clear, and at least until the last few decades pretty much every sect of christianity (*) has reflected that bias in many different ways (and most still do). I'm not saying that's bad (or good), it's simply a statement of fact.
edit - *and other bible-based religion
Originally posted by avalanchethecatno its not a statement of fact, its a statement of opinion and unsubstantiated at that. Indeed how will you interpret Christs very own words, 'Abba, Father, all things are possible to you', from the Aramaic, father? The actual truth of the matter is, that Father carries with it certain connotations which does not permit a genderless rendering, as does mother, and the Bible writers themselves used this symbolism as it was most fitting, not because of ludicrous political correctness, but because it best conveyed the ideas behind their renderings of the text. You can whine all you like, all you have is a statement of opinion and a completely unfounded one at that.
You tell yourself whatever you need to in order to square it with your conscience Robbie.
The gender bias within biblical scripture is quite clear, and at least until the last few decades pretty much every sect of christianity has reflected that bias in many different ways (and most still do). I'm not saying that's bad (or good), it's simply a statement of fact.
Originally posted by robbie carrobieIsaiah 42:13 The LORD will march out like a champion,
(Exodus 15:3) . . .Jehovah is a manly person of war. Jehovah is his name.
(Isaiah 42:13) . . .Like a mighty man Jehovah himself will go forth. Like a warrior he will awaken zeal. . .
(Mark 14:36) . . .And he went on to say: “Abba, Father, all things are possible to you; remove this cup from me. Yet not what I want, but what you want.”
ok, how would you therefore translate these verses?
like a warrior he will stir up his zeal;
with a shout he will raise the battle cry
and will triumph over his enemies.
14 “For a long time I have kept silent,
I have been quiet and held myself back.
But now, like a woman in childbirth,
I cry out, I gasp and pant.
Isaiah 49: 14 But Zion said, “The LORD has forsaken me,
the Lord has forgotten me.”
15 “Can a mother forget the baby at her breast
and have no compassion on the child she has borne?
Though she may forget,
I will not forget you!
Luke 15: 8 “Or suppose a woman has ten silver coins[a] and loses one. Doesn’t she light a lamp, sweep the house and search carefully until she finds it? 9 And when she finds it, she calls her friends and neighbors together and says, ‘Rejoice with me; I have found my lost coin.’ 10 In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Psalm 17:8 Keep me as the apple of your eye;
hide me in the shadow of your wings
Psalm 36:7 How priceless is your unfailing love, O God!
People take refuge in the shadow of your wings.
lots more from this Source: http://clubs.calvin.edu/chimes/970418/o1041897.htm
Consider this
At John 16:7, 8, 13, the Authorized Version quotes Jesus as stating: “If I go not away, the Comforter [parakletos] will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. And when he is come, he will reprove the world . . . when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth.”
In connection with this passage, the New Catholic Encyclopedia (Vol. 13, pp. 575, 576) observes: “So clearly does St. John see in the Spirit a person who takes Christ’s place in the Church, that he uses a masculine pronoun [ekeinos] in reference to the Spirit even though [pneuma, spirit] is neuter in gender
But did John really use the masculine pronoun despite the neuter gender of the word “spirit”? Was his purpose to show that the spirit is indeed masculine? What is the antecedent of the pronoun “he”? Is it not the word “Comforter”? Yes, and the Greek word so rendered is parakletos and is masculine in gender. Rightly, then, John used masculine pronouns in this passage because grammatical usage required it.
thus puttycatdude that are linguistic and grammatical reasons for rendering the text in the masculine as well as symbolic renderings which are employed to convey certain characteristics.
Originally posted by robbie carrobieAgain we are talking about gender defaults associated with language. It would have been technically accurate to say it, but it would be grammatically akward to do so. You are making a case for the gender of God without the ability to read the original language, without any context, and with a presupposed and predetermined outcome.
Consider this
At John 16:7, 8, 13, the Authorized Version quotes Jesus as stating: “If I go not away, the Comforter [parakletos] will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send [b]him unto you. And when he is come, he will reprove the world . . . when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, [b]he will guide you into all truth.”
In connection ...[text shortened]... e masculine as well as symbolic renderings which are employed to convey certain characteristics.[/b]
Originally posted by robbie carrobieWhine - argument by emotive language tut tut.
no its not a statement of fact, its a statement of opinion and unsubstantiated at that. Indeed how will you interpret Christs very own words, 'Abba', from the Aramaic, father? The actual truth of the matter is, that Father carries with it certain connotations which does not permit a genderless rendering, as does mother, and the Bible writers themse ...[text shortened]... ne all you like, all you ave is a statement of opinion and a completely unfounded one at that.
Use of 'Abba' - argument by selective observation, prestigious jargon and digression.
Unfounded opinion? Two thousand years of male-dominated christianity, Mr Carrobie, that's a reasonable foundation I think. My opinion? No. A simple assay of the weight of scriptural evidence favouring men over women in pretty much every sphere of life. I can tell you don't like it, but your denial rather lacks credibility. Perhaps you can find some scripture to back your position?
Originally posted by Dowardyes i do not deny these renderings, but you have evaded the question, which was, if God is genderless and one should not ascribe any gender to him, how will you render these verses? You have simply ignored the question. Furthermore it is clear that Christ, used in connection with God, the term , 'Abba', that is from the Aramaic, father. Why would you therefore go beyond what Christ has stated and establish your own criteria?
Isaiah 42:13 The LORD will march out like a champion,
like a warrior he will stir up his zeal;
with a shout he will raise the battle cry
and will triumph over his enemies.
14 “For a long time I have kept silent,
I have been quiet and held myself back.
But now, like a woman in childbirth,
I cry out, I gasp and pant.
Isaiah 49: ...[text shortened]... your wings.
lots more from this Source: http://clubs.calvin.edu/chimes/970418/o1041897.htm
your attempt to use the reference of a women in childbirth is not very convincing, as it describes that God is like, that is, it uses an analogy. The same with the other reference to a women not forgetting her child and the rest. Not very convincing.
Originally posted by Dowardpiece of nonsense, i checked my references with a Hebrew/Greek interlinear before i posted them, plus, i have given an example of correct grammatical usage which renders a genderless noun, masculine in order to be grammatically correct.
Again we are talking about gender defaults associated with language. It would have been technically accurate to say it, but it would be grammatically akward to do so. You are making a case for the gender of God without the ability to read the original language, without any context, and with a presupposed and predetermined outcome.
Hosea 13:8 Like a bear robbed of her cubs,
I will attack them and rip them open;
like a lion I will devour them—
a wild animal will tear them apart
John 3:5 (here the feminine is used for the Spirit): 5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.
John 1:13 (again the feminine is used)13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.
Matthew 23: 37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.
There are many many such instances in the bible that refrences God as feminine or having feminine charcteristics. The vast majority of biblical scholars would disagree with you RC. God is unrightfully thought to be male, God is neither gender and both at the same time.