14 Jun 11
2 edits
Originally posted by robbie carrobieRobbie, you know that Hebrew is a gendered language—there is no neuter for anything. Even rocks are he’s or she’s, but that says nothing about their actual gender. The same for all the Semitic languages. There are other languages like that, such as Spanish (I can’t recall—embaaaarrassed! 😳 —if Greek is the same). The pre-eminent name for god—YHVH—is actually a construct that includes both masculine and feminine. Yah (as in Hallelu-Yah!) is actually feminine.
you would not advocate changing the sacred text?
From my point of view, “gender bias” occurs when such gendered languages are used (abused) in support of gender-biased social/cultural suppression. It is not clear to me that gendered languages evolved for that purpose, or that they have always supported that purpose. The fact that the “kyriarchy” might use gendered language to support their hegemony does not mean—to me, anyway—that Spanish (for example) needs to be reconfigured at the root.
By the same token, the gendered language ought not to prohibit anyone from viewing the deity as feminine. It really ought to have no play at all—unless one wants to insist that mountains are actually female, and rivers are actually male, or whatever…
14 Jun 11
Originally posted by vistesdThen why did God become a man? Why not a woman? Why are all the angels male?
Robbie, you know that Hebrew is a gendered language—there is no neuter for anything. Even rocks are he’s or she’s, but that says nothing about their actual gender. The same for all the Semitic languages. There are other languages like that, such as Spanish (I can’t recall—embaaaarrassed! 😳 —if Greek is the same). The pre-eminent name for god—YH ...[text shortened]... e wants to insist that mountains are actually female, and rivers are actually male, or whatever…
Jesus referred to God as His Father. Maybe the Greek word for father would be better translated famother.
Maybe someday billions of years from now man will evolve into a shemale and there will no longer be two sexes, and they will hear about the myths of gender and laugh.
Off the cuff and spontaneously erupted post. 😉
14 Jun 11
Originally posted by josephw"I had a dad
Then why did God become a man? Why not a woman? Why are all the angels male?
Jesus referred to God as His Father. Maybe the Greek word for father would be better translated famother.
Maybe someday billions of years from now man will evolve into a shemale and there will no longer be two sexes, and they will hear about the myths of gender and laugh.
Off the cuff and spontaneously erupted post. 😉
big and strong
I turned aound and found my daddy gone
He was the one who made me what I am today
It's up to me now
My Daddy has gone away"
-Perry Farrell
- Joined
- 15 Sep 04
- Moves
- 7051
14 Jun 11
2 edits
Originally posted by vistesdRobbie, you know that Hebrew is a gendered language—there is no neuter for anything. Even rocks are he’s or she’s, but that says nothing about their actual gender. The same for all the Semitic languages. There are other languages like that, such as Spanish (I can’t recall—embaaaarrassed! 😳 —if Greek is the same). The pre-eminent name for god—YHVH—is actually a construct that includes both masculine and feminine. Yah (as in Hallelu-Yah!) is actually feminine.
Robbie, you know that Hebrew is a gendered language—there is no neuter for anything. Even rocks are he’s or she’s, but that says nothing about their actual gender. The same for all the Semitic languages. There are other languages like that, such as Spanish (I can’t recall—embaaaarrassed! 😳 —if Greek is the same). The pre-eminent name for god—YH ...[text shortened]... e wants to insist that mountains are actually female, and rivers are actually male, or whatever…
Greek does have a neuter. The basic word for rock though, lithos, is masculine. 🙂
But the point here isn't just pronouns. God is largely described as male. Israel for example is God's bride. God is definitely gendered.
- Joined
- 15 Sep 04
- Moves
- 7051
14 Jun 11
Originally posted by josephwAbsolutely. I once read an article titled "Androgyny-the ideal for human development" back in my school days. The idea was to blend the positive qualities of both sexes. To a certain extent that "ideal" has been realized. A real testament to the effects of behavior modification foisted on the general population by such agencies as Hollywood and the liberal elites in our schools and universities. The result is the effeminization of men and the masculinization of women.
[b]"ok, do you think there have been attempts through popular culture to obscure the differences between men and women though?"
Absolutely. I once read an article titled "Androgyny-the ideal for human development" back in my school days. The idea was to blend the positive qualities of both sexes. To a certain extent that "ideal" has been realized. A r ...[text shortened]... k we call the Bible is the Word of God. God defines and reveals Himself to us as Father.[/b]
Yes, of course, and all boys should play with trucks, have toy guns, roll in the mud and climb trees while little girls should play with dolls, do ballet and learn to knit. Men should like cars, talk about football, drink beer and wear flannel shirts while women should should be prissy, wear dresses, have children and be good mothers. Because if anyone considers the possibility of a woman enjoying football or a man learning to sew, that would just mean cultural androgyny and the end of gender all together!
🙄
14 Jun 11
1 edit
Originally posted by Conrau Ki am gonna send you up to Queensland for some training mate! 🙂
Absolutely. I once read an article titled "Androgyny-the ideal for human development" back in my school days. The idea was to blend the positive qualities of both sexes. To a certain extent that "ideal" has been realized. A real testament to the effects of behavior modification foisted on the general population by such agencies as Hollywood and the liber g to sew, that would just mean cultural androgyny and the end of gender all together!
🙄[/b]
14 Jun 11
Originally posted by vistesdgreetings my learned friend, one always needs to reflect upon your words do do them any kind of justice. Yes Hebrew carries with it , intrinsically, gender specific attributes, and as Conrau points out, Greek has the facility for neuter, however, we are well advised to ask ourselves, to what degree do these gendered words actually influence our perceptions of them. If i am sailing upon some type of seagoing vessel (gendered usually as a lady) do i really think of it as a she? Guitars also are generally referred to as she, although completely inanimate, simply because of their curvy shape. The main objection, as far as i can discern, is that the accusation of bias has arisen by those who , 'cannot relate to a male deity', or for political correctness and thus attempts have been made to remove gender related terms. Does one actually think of God in terms of gender, despite these gender related appellations? I really dont think so. Indeed it appears to me that those who are having a problem with it, may in fact be projecting their own bias in insisting that gender related terms be removed or replaced, for as you have most excellently pointed out, as well as Doward, that there is no reason to think of God as either male nor female, these symbols are merely used to convey certain attributes. It neither seems quite proper to term 'him', 'it', for it carries with it, to our cultured ears something of disrespect. Thus it seems to me that we should retain the masculine for it carries with it certain connotations which would otherwise be lost, yet to remain mindful of the feminine characteristics also, for these as in nature, act as a refinement and a balance.
Robbie, you know that Hebrew is a gendered language—there is no neuter for anything. Even rocks are he’s or she’s, but that says nothing about their actual gender. The same for all the Semitic languages. There are other languages like that, such as Spanish (I can’t recall—embaaaarrassed! 😳 —if Greek is the same). The pre-eminent name for god—YH ...[text shortened]... e wants to insist that mountains are actually female, and rivers are actually male, or whatever…
14 Jun 11
Originally posted by Conrau Kwell, in native American cultures children chose their sex in a way. they were offered women tools (suck as gathering tools and such) or spears and hunting tools and which ever they went towards was their gender role in society. And i think its the incans who actually have five sexes. and some people say that there are in fact six billion different sexes as we are all placed somewhere different on a continuum between man and woman.
[b]Absolutely. I once read an article titled "Androgyny-the ideal for human development" back in my school days. The idea was to blend the positive qualities of both sexes. To a certain extent that "ideal" has been realized. A real testament to the effects of behavior modification foisted on the general population by such agencies as Hollywood and the liber ...[text shortened]... g to sew, that would just mean cultural androgyny and the end of gender all together!
🙄
14 Jun 11
1 edit
Originally posted by avalanchethecatLets see how you like this,
sigh...
1. Deut 22:13-21. It's not hard to find.
2. Deut 21:11. Apparently they were also counselled that it was ok to take foreign wives - I'm not particularly surprised to encounter such contradictions in biblical scripture however.
3. Rather unreasonably severe and highly male-centred kind of protection from false accusation of rape - surely al reference from you which esteems the feminine over the masculine.
(Psalm 68:11-13) . . .Jehovah himself gives the saying; The women telling the good news are a large army. Even the kings of armies flee, they flee. As for her who abides at home, she shares in the spoil. Although you men kept lying between the [camp] ash heaps,. . .
extolling the virtues of women above men, oh dear, what will your sensationalist tabloid journalist friend have to say about that?
what is more the scriptures are full of praise for ladies,
A wife of noble character who can find?
She is worth far more than rubies.
11 Her husband has full confidence in her
and lacks nothing of value.
12 She brings him good, not harm,
all the days of her life.
13 She selects wool and flax
and works with eager hands.
14 She is like the merchant ships,
bringing her food from afar.
15 She gets up while it is still night;
she provides food for her family
and portions for her female servants.
16 She considers a field and buys it;
out of her earnings she plants a vineyard.
17 She sets about her work vigorously;
her arms are strong for her tasks.
18 She sees that her trading is profitable,
and her lamp does not go out at night.
19 In her hand she holds the distaff
and grasps the spindle with her fingers.
20 She opens her arms to the poor
and extends her hands to the needy.
21 When it snows, she has no fear for her household;
for all of them are clothed in scarlet.
22 She makes coverings for her bed;
she is clothed in fine linen and purple.
23 Her husband is respected at the city gate,
where he takes his seat among the elders of the land.
24 She makes linen garments and sells them,
and supplies the merchants with sashes.
25 She is clothed with strength and dignity;
she can laugh at the days to come.
26 She speaks with wisdom,
and faithful instruction is on her tongue.
27 She watches over the affairs of her household
and does not eat the bread of idleness.
28 Her children arise and call her blessed;
her husband also, and he praises her:
29 “Many women do noble things,
but you surpass them all.”
30 Charm is deceptive, and beauty is fleeting;
but a woman who fears the LORD is to be praised.
31 Honor her for all that her hands have done,
and let her works bring her praise at the city gate.
Proverbs chapter 31 (NIV)
indeed, praised as artistic, capable, industrious, businesslike, thrifty, generous,
empathetic, merciful, wise, dignified and strong, to be honoured and cherished, how
will your unscrupulous bias twist these verses, do tell.
14 Jun 11
Originally posted by Conrau KI need to think about this.
[b]There has been noticeably in recent times a marked attempt through common culture to subtly obscure the distinctions, uni-sex perfumes, teenage emo boys that look like chicks! Glam rockers with glittery eye shadow, all essentially effeminate, and then we have seen chicks wielding AK47 rifles and through a hail of bullets blasting her way to super-heroine ...[text shortened]... a culture with totally different understandings of what constitutes a masculinity?
14 Jun 11
1 edit
Originally posted by Conrau K[/b]The key word here is "largely". There are also feminine descriptions. The issue, for me anyway, is not that god has been so gendered (and in ways that have marginalized women's place in the religion(s)), but whether or not god must be so gendered by Judaism and Christianity--e.g. to maintain integrity with the Torah and the rest of the Tanakh, and the NT. The answer of Judaism (though remember that Judaism is not so doctrinally bound, generally, as at least some expressions of Christianity--largely because of the range of application, and ongoing development, of the Oral Torah)--the answer of Judaism is generally: "No."
[b]Robbie, you know that Hebrew is a gendered language—there is no neuter for anything. Even rocks are he’s or she’s, but that says nothing about their actual gender. The same for all the Semitic languages. There are other languages like that, such as Spanish (I can’t recall—embaaaarrassed! 😳 —if Greek is the same). The pre-eminent name for go d is largely described as male. Israel for example is God's bride. God is definitely gendered.
I agree that the issue is not simply one of pronouns (thanks for the information on the Greek). Or even of gendered nouns/names, such as Yah (or Eloah). How much can the hertitage of the patriarchal views (Elisabeth Schussler-Fiorenza would say "kyriarchal" ) be relieved. A good read, from a Jewish perspective, might be Judith Plaskow's Standing Again at Sinai.
14 Jun 11
Originally posted by robbie carrobieOh god. not now Robbie, it's "State of Origin". The Brisbanites have turned into maroon hoons. Poor old Conrau, though I dont doubt he can handle himself, would be given a bit of a false impression of our fair state.( Hey Conrau, dont mean to be presumptous, just blathering).
i am gonna send you up to Queensland for some training mate! 🙂
Go the Blues!! All the way with the team with the less idiotic supporters!!
14 Jun 11
Originally posted by daisychainsawDont go saying stuff like that- you'll upset Robbie. He knows that a good woman has her place, and no matter how much he tries to turn it up he still reminds me of Homer Simpson who looks upon his family with "Homer goggles".
well, in native American cultures children chose their sex in a way. they were offered women tools (suck as gathering tools and such) or spears and hunting tools and which ever they went towards was their gender role in society. And i think its the incans who actually have five sexes. and some people say that there are in fact six billion different sexes as we are all placed somewhere different on a continuum between man and woman.
"My beautiful queen Marge and little princess Lisa and .... Ratboy!"
14 Jun 11
Originally posted by robbie carrobieYou really don't see it do you? Frankly Robbie, you have surprised me. I know that that faith stuff tends to muddy your cerebral waters, but if you honestly can't see the gender bias that abounds throughout your scripture and through pretty much every biblically-based religion, well, I see no further entertainment to be gained from trying to point it out to you.
Lets see how you like this,
(Psalm 68:11-13) . . .Jehovah himself gives the saying; The women telling the good news are a large army. Even the kings of armies flee, they flee. As for her who abides at home, she shares in the spoil. Although you men kept lying between the [camp] ash heaps,. . .
extolling the virtues of women above men, oh dea ...[text shortened]... ng, to be honoured and cherished, how
will your unscrupulous bias twist these verses, do tell.
I wonder if the truth is that you do actually see it, but feel compelled to argue it's absence because you know it's not a good thing and you won't permit yourself to allow even the suggestion of a negative quality to your scripture and faith - maybe that would be the crack in the dam, eh?