08 Apr 07
3 edits
Originally posted by bbarrBut if God be God are we not his property? The amazing thing is that we have the right not to serve him at all. I once thought as you did, however, I later realized that the perversion was in my own mind. The number one commandment is to love God with all your heart, so if I love God I will serve him much like I may serve my spouse in whom I love. If you keep this commandment you will seek to please your maker much like I may seek to please my spouse and you will keep all the other commandments without even trying. I think we can both agree that love is what motivates us and is what is pure. However, to love those things that are created above the Creator that put them there in your life is a little skewed to say the least. God is good and all that is good in your life is but a gift to you from a good God even though you may choose not to serve him.
Of course there is nothing hideous about actual goodness, or life, or freedom. What is hideous is how these notions get perverted in the context of your faith. Our lives become God's property, to do with what he will. Goodness become mere rule of force, where the mightiest person simply decrees with is right and wrong. Freedom becomes the freedom to serve, ...[text shortened]... e is eternal damnation. This is why your faith has always struck me as fundamentally horrific.
If God is all powerful and all he desires is service and worship why would he design us with free will that may prevent us from doing so? The answer is that he ONLY desires your heart. He does not want your service if your heart is not in it.
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08 Apr 07
Originally posted by bbarrIf I refuse the life preserver, it is not murder.....I have no one to blame but myself...It would behoove anyone to continue to seek truth at any cost. If you can't find it in the bible or Christianity, continue on, seek elsewhere. But don't be surprised if in the end, after exhausting your search, you find Jesus Christ. He is like the diamond lost in the ruff.
Well as long as it's merely murder and not torture...
08 Apr 07
2 edits
Originally posted by whodeySo if the Bible says that it is God's will that NONE should perish then does this not negate the idea that he wills certain people to hell?
So if the Bible says that it is God's will that NONE should perish then does this not negate the idea that he wills certain people to hell?
From my perspective of the Bible, faith is what God desires, no? The Bible says that via faith we are counted as righteous. For me, this is because God is a God of love and subsequently of free will and requires us t ...[text shortened]... ht where is free will? Would one rather be a prisoner and alive or dead and free, so to speak?
One would think so... At least to eternal hell (have you read any of my posts citing Olivier Clement as a major Greek Orthodox theologian, St. Gregory of Nyssa and St. Isaac the Syrian, among others, on this?).
From my perspective of the Bible, faith is what God desires, no?
Faith for whom—that is, for whose benefit?
I have argued on here for a couple years now that the biblical concept of faith is not the same as contemporary notions of belief—such as assent to a proposition (e.g., Jesus as “lord and savior” ). Faith, properly understood, can be part and parcel of a rich and fulfilling life.
If bbarr’s idea of salvation as the continuing transformation of one’s life is correct (as I think it is—so long as that transformation is toward expanding wholeness and flourishing), and if the Greek Orthodox are right that salvation (Greek: soterias) means healing or making-well, then the connection between faith and salvation seems fairly clear.
One can continue to be a strict theist, with a belief in eternal life, without having to reject these notions. One does not even have to reject the idea of “hell”—just the notion of its eternality with regard to any given person. (I have written so much of the church fathers on this, that I will not repeat it again.)
Again: God either chooses not to save (certain folks), or fails to save, or saves.
EDIT: And again: In which of those cases that I listed in my prior post, according to Christian soteriology, even within a theology of the cross, is God’s sacrificial death not efficacious?
08 Apr 07
Originally posted by whodeywhodey: The answer is that he ONLY desires your heart.
But if God be God are we not his property? The amazing thing is that we have the right not to serve him at all. I once thought as you did, however, I later realized that the perversion was in my own mind. The number one commandment is to love God with all your heart, so if I love God I will serve him much like I may serve my spouse in whom I love. If you ...[text shortened]... r is that he ONLY desires your heart. He does not want your service if your heart is not in it.
Why? Doesn't he have better things to do than be worshipped for all time by beings who are so inferior to him? Tell him to get a job.
08 Apr 07
1 edit
Originally posted by whodeywhodey: But if God be God are we not his property?
But if God be God are we not his property? The amazing thing is that we have the right not to serve him at all. I once thought as you did, however, I later realized that the perversion was in my own mind. The number one commandment is to love God with all your heart, so if I love God I will serve him much like I may serve my spouse in whom I love. If you ...[text shortened]... r is that he ONLY desires your heart. He does not want your service if your heart is not in it.
How you can hold in the same cranial mass at the same time the ideas that 1) Man has free will; and 2) Man is an entity's property and not realize that they are self-contradictory concepts is a greater mystery than what happened to Amelia Earhart.
08 Apr 07
2 edits
Originally posted by no1marauderThink about it. What has God CHOSEN to set free, so to speak? Is it not your free will? Your heart is the only thing he has chosen not to extend direct control over, therefore, it is precious in his sight. Will no1marauder chose to love me or will he not? Will what God has created choose to return to their rightful owner/
whodey: The answer is that he ONLY desires your heart.
Why? Doesn't he have better things to do than be worshipped for all time by beings who are so inferior to him? Tell him to get a job.
If God were the type that only required praise and worship he could pay you money to do so. I am sure if the price were right you would. Or God could take away your free will and force you to do so. So the question begs, if worship is all he is after then why give us free will with the potential to not praise him? The answer is that your heart would not be in it, therefore, he is not interested in such praise. Again, the number one commandment is to love God with all your heart. So if you do decide to praise God it will be a natural outpouring of such love for him. However, if God forced you to love him it would be nothing more than God loving himself. Other than benefiting a few people I know, what good is that?
08 Apr 07
Originally posted by no1marauderWell if you create something is it your property?
whodey: But if God be God are we not his property?
How you can hold in the same cranial mass at the same time the ideas that 1) Man has free will; and 2) Man is an entity's property and not realize that they are self-contradictory concepts is a greater mystery than what happened to Amelia Earhart.
08 Apr 07
1 edit
Originally posted by Dance Master MCI suppose it would depend on who you ask. There are a myriad of different beliefs, at least within Chrisitiandom. For example, some think we have no free will and that everything is predetermined and others do not. I am not as well versed in the other religions, however. My belief system extends soley from my Biblical study. I tend to give greater weight to what the Bible says than what other people say it says. After all, all of the other religions you mentioned believe the Bible is the insipired word of God so the truth is there, you simply must acsertain what it is. Why would I simply listen to everyone else who trys to tell me what it is really saying? After all,
I was wondering whether or not the "god" of Christianity, Judaism, and Islam act in the same way, do they reject those who exercise their own right of "free will" that we all are given the choice or option to have faith and love "god" as our maker😕
Christ said if you seek, you will find. It is there for you to seek rather than it being there for someone to seek it for you. On occasion I might read other Christian philosophers or theologins or writings from church founders but are they better than I at ascertaining what God has communicated to all of humanity? Perhaps they have insight into things that I do not, howver, if I deem it heretical to what I beleive is the inspired word of God it will reject it in a heart beat. In fact, the Bible warns us to become familiar with its contents so as to venture down the wrong path and to help warn those that do.