Good Friday's gone and passed...

Originally posted by scottishinnz
It's a real problem. You seem unwilling to tackle it though. I wonder why?

Sure I do, but the same questions have been answered over and over again, but the same questions keep coming back like no answer was given....You asked the same thing on page 3 of this thread and I answered. Then you ignored the answer and asked another question...so as I said, we go round and round in circles...😕

Originally posted by checkbaiter
Sure I do, but the same questions have been answered over and over again, but the same questions keep coming back like no answer was given....You asked the same thing on page 3 of this thread and I answered. Then you ignored the answer and asked another question...so as I said, we go round and round in circles...😕

A 4-O (or even 3-O) God is internally illogical, and incompatible with the evidence. Fudge it if you will.

Originally posted by whodey
Well if you create something is it your property?

No. Are your children your property?

Originally posted by whodey
Think about it. What has God CHOSEN to set free, so to speak? Is it not your free will? Your heart is the only thing he has chosen not to extend direct control over, therefore, it is precious in his sight. Will no1marauder chose to love me or will he not? Will what God has created choose to return to their rightful owner/

If God were the type that onl ...[text shortened]... ing more than God loving himself. Other than benefiting a few people I know, what good is that?

Again why? Why is it soooooooooooooooooo important to a 3 O entity to be worshipped at all by such inferior beings? You keep talking about "free will" but that's not what I'm talking about. I'm asking why your Super Duper God apparently has some need to be loved by inferior beings "freely" or not.

Originally posted by no1marauder
Again why? Why is it soooooooooooooooooo important to a 3 O entity to be worshipped at all by such inferior beings? You keep talking about "free will" but that's not what I'm talking about. I'm asking why your Super Duper God apparently has some need to be loved by inferior beings "freely" or not.

There is an obvious reason why an omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, self-subsistent, perfect, and infinite God is keen to have a mere piece of contingently organized stardust like whodey worship him.

It flatters whodey.

Originally posted by scottishinnz
No. But it's a logical impossibility for an all-knowing, all powerful God to do it.

He did it through Jesus...... why question God?

Originally posted by bbarr
Come on. If salvation really is a gift, then we should be able to refuse it without being punished.

Just to point out that you're using 'gift' in a different sense than in the original post. You're thinking of it as a 'freebie' (i.e. at no cost to us) whereas he's using it as 'unmerited' (i.e. we did nothing to deserve it).

Originally posted by shavixmir
And they crusified the bastard! Good for the Romans!

Clearly someone who isn't bitter. 😕

Originally posted by lucifershammer
Just to point out that you're using 'gift' in a different sense than in the original post. You're thinking of it as a 'freebie' (i.e. at no cost to us) whereas he's using it as 'unmerited' (i.e. we did nothing to deserve it).

No, I do not take 'gift' to entail being a 'freebie', and nothing in my post suggests otherwise. My understanding of 'gift' is compatible with there being any number of preconditions necessary for the gift to be offered. What is incompatible with any plausible reading of 'gift' is that one be brutally punished for refusing it.

Originally posted by bbarr
No, I do not take 'gift' to entail being a 'freebie', and nothing in my post suggests otherwise. My understanding of 'gift' is compatible with there being any number of preconditions necessary for the gift to be offered. What is incompatible with any plausible reading of 'gift' is that one be brutally punished for refusing it.

And if the gift is unmerited, how can refusal “merit” such a reprisal?

Originally posted by Nordlys
Apparently that's what your God is doing. "Take this gift, or else... 😠" As bbarr pointed out, that's a rather strange (and certainly not very loving) way to offer a gift.

It is not take this gift or else. We were all born sinners (not in a right relationship with God) because of the fall of man - Adam and Eve. So, we are destined for hell. Jesus came and died on the cross to pay the penalty for that sin. "The wages of sin is death". There are reprecussions to all our actions. Someone mentioned a drowning victim. We throw out a life preserver and they have the choice to either grab hold of the preserver or not. The person throwing it out doesn't make the choice the victim does. It is the same way with Jesus. He paid the price for you to be saved and go to Heaven. Now everyone has the choice to either take the free gift or go throughout life as normal and go to hell. It is a free gift to take but not a "take it or else" because the "or else" is already happening - present tense.

Does that make any sense??? I hope I articulated that so everyone understood my thoughts.

Have a great day! 🙂

Originally posted by safetyman
It is not take this gift or else. We were all born sinners (not in a right relationship with God) because of the fall of man - Adam and Eve. So, we are destined for hell. Jesus came and died on the cross to pay the penalty for that sin. "The wages of sin is death". There are reprecussions to all our actions. Someone mentioned a drowning victim. We t ...[text shortened]... ? I hope I articulated that so everyone understood my thoughts.

Have a great day! 🙂

Lovely analogy. Let me expand on it in light of typical christian theology.

Everyone starts off drowning. Many life preservers are thrown down, and this is called a 'gift', ignoring the fact that the guy throwing the life preservers is the same guy who put everyone in the water in the first place.

Furthermore, not all areas of the world receive life preservers, yet they are still 'blamed' for drowning.

People who try rubber rafts instead of life preservers drown anyway. They should have known that a life preserver is the only official way to save yourself from drowning!

In short, even in your analogy, it is still a 'take it or else' scenario.

Originally posted by Pawnokeyhole
There is an obvious reason why an omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, self-subsistent, perfect, and infinite God is keen to have a mere piece of contingently organized stardust like whodey worship him.

It flatters whodey.

Yes it does. I am nothing compared to him yet he values me. That is the only God I want to serve!!!!!

Originally posted by SwissGambit
Lovely analogy. Let me expand on it in light of typical christian theology.

Everyone starts off drowning. Many life preservers are thrown down, and this is called a 'gift', ignoring the fact that the guy throwing the life preservers is the same guy who put everyone in the water in the first place.

Furthermore, not all areas of the world receive lif wning!

In short, even in your analogy, it [b]is still a 'take it or else' scenario.[/b]

So, can you agree that we are in the "or else" portion of the "take this or else"? If you can, I guess I could agree that you are correct in that God has said take this gift (free ticket) or else you will stay in the same condition you are in and go to hell.

You are correct in that there are many life preservers being thrown into the water, but not all by the life saver (God). I see the rafts that you are talking about being, buddism, hinduism, new age movement etc, etc. that doesn't make them the life preserver. In Roman 1:20-21 it states this:

For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God, or give thanks; but they became futile in their speculations and their foolish heart was darkened.

You can see God by looking at the mountains, seeing the trees and flowers, everything that is around you shows you that God exists in His creation. I don't see how people can see all this stuff and think we had a big bang and then all of this just happened. I think it would take more faith in that than to believe there is a creator and that He loves us and wants to spend eternity with us in Heaven!

Now, your other point was that God put everyone in the water to drowned. That's not correct. You are correct in that we start off in the water, but that is because of the fall of man in the Garden of Eden with Adam and Eve. God did not make them sin and fall out of His perfect will. God had them on dry land! They jumped off the boat into the water. God told them to take his hand (son Jesus) and He would help them up out of the water. Well, not Adam and Eve, but from the time He sent his son Jesus. Prior to sending Jesus the people had different ways of covering their sin, but that's a different story.

Originally posted by safetyman
You can see God by looking at the mountains, seeing the trees and flowers, everything that is around you shows you that God exists in His creation.

Thats where you are wrong. You may see it but I don't. In fact, I tend to see a distinct lack of God.

For you (or any other Theist or your hypothetical God) to claim that I have been made aware of the existence of God and have rejected him is false.
So, effectively, I have been chucked in the water, thrown a life raft, but not been told what a life raft looks like or even realized that I might be about to drown. You then claim that it is fair and just for me to be punished for not immediately grabbing hold of a life raft.

Luckily for me, I don't believe I am drowning and see all these crazy Christians running around on dry land grabbing on to life rafts.