07 Nov 08
1 edit
Good works that are performed in order to gain salvation can be said to be faulty in there motivation and origins.
As long as a man is thinking about salvation when performing good works or even in the pursuit of righteousness then his efforts are motivated by a search for salvation (ie selfishness) and not out of love.
The true and holy pursuit of righteousness and good works is done out of love and not some hidden motivation to get saved. As long as one lives in fear of not being saved then the love that God wants us to have in our hearts cannot thrive. It is only through assurance of salvation that good works can be performed as acts of love and gratitude to God.
To be on the receiving end of good works that are performed in order to "get saved" is not very nice (I have expereinced this) because it just doesn't feel right. The person is not focussed on love or you but on themselves and tryig to please God so he will save them. It's the same with someone who is trying to be righteous to get saved , it's all fear based - it's ugly and it's not love.
Such souls fear God and have no assurance and love cannot flourish in them because they do not know that God loves them unconditionally and cannot accept that he loves them just as they are (not as they should be). This leads them to not be able to accept others very well and have strong emotional reactions against those that claim that one can be saved and assured of it.
It's a simple choice , live in the house of fear , constantly searching for a salvation that never quite comes or live in the house of grace and love and be freed to love others for no other motive than gratitude and love itself.
I know which I prefer.
07 Nov 08
4 edits
Originally posted by knightmeisterYou understand something about the symptoms, but you do not clearly understand the malady. And you certainly do not understand how to treat it: you only do disservice when you dole out your lofty clinical advice. So your great prescription is that in order for one's motivations to be properly other-regarding, one has to have assurance in his salvation (he has to really, really know that his eternal soul is saved and there is some great invisibly big daddy hovering overhead and doting on him just so). Absolutely wrong. In fact, your prescription is counteractive. I still like the words of Stephen Batchelor (from Buddhism without Beliefs), which basically have you pegged: "In the face of a changing world, such craving seeks consolation in something permanent and reliable, in a self that is in control of things, in a God who is in charge of destiny. The irony of this strategy is that it turns out to be the cause of what it seeks to dispel. In yearning for anguish to be assuaged in such ways, we reinforce what creates anguish in the first place: the craving for life to be other than what it is."
Good works that are performed in order to gain salvation can be said to be faulty in there motivation and origins.
As long as a man is thinking about salvation when performing good works or even in the pursuit of righteousness then his efforts are motivated by a search for salvation (ie selfishness) and not out of love.
The true and holy pursui ve others for no other motive than gratitude and love itself.
I know which I prefer.
The fact is, knightmeister, your prescription doesn't work. I'm just being practical here. Not only does it not work, but it reinforces the problem, as Batchelor points out. If you want real "salvation", it's in disintegration of the ego; whereas your basic notions regarding salvation and the self only seem to continually give life to the ego. If you have disintegration of the ego, other-regarding motivations flow naturally.
On top of which, you are naive. "It's a simple choice." Yeah, right. On the contrary, it takes effort and practice, and it's not even clear how much active input we can place into reshaping and reprivatizing our characters and dispositional/evaluative/motivational sets. My best advice would be something like dharma practice (to catalyze dissolution of the ego) and reflection on the deliverances of the virtues, like compassion (to hopefully make us properly responsive to good practical reasons). Your advice, on the other hand, is naive and a waste of time.
07 Nov 08
1 edit
Originally posted by LemonJelloIt's no wonder you don't understand salvation.
You understand something about the symptoms, but you do not clearly understand the malady. And you certainly do not understand how to treat it: you only do disservice when you dole out your lofty clinical advice. So your great prescription is that in order for one's motivations to be properly other-regarding, one has to have assurance in his salvation ( d practical reasons). Your advice, on the other hand, is naive and a waste of time.
You get your definition from a Buddhist and not the Bible.
07 Nov 08
Originally posted by knightmeisterHow much of this is clearly written in the Bible ?
Good works that are performed in order to gain salvation can be said to be faulty in there motivation and origins.
As long as a man is thinking about salvation when performing good works or even in the pursuit of righteousness then his efforts are motivated by a search for salvation (ie selfishness) and not out of love.
The true and holy pursui ...[text shortened]... ve others for no other motive than gratitude and love itself.
I know which I prefer.
Do me 2 favours please.
1. DO NOT PREACH ... (thank you).
2. Just tell me a couple passages. I will look it up. Hold the analysis and if this, then that .. kind of stuff. 🙂
07 Nov 08
1 edit
Originally posted by josephwTruth be, I don't care much for the word 'salvation'. If I had to attach a notion to it, though, it would have something to do with ego disintegration. It would certainly have nothing to do with your religious superstitions and stories.
It's no wonder you don't understand salvation.
You get your definition from a Buddhist and not the Bible.
07 Nov 08
Originally posted by LemonJelloMy post was actually directed at those who do seem to believe in God but also deny grace and assurance through faith. Although I didn't make this explicit , I thought that was clear from my wording.
You understand something about the symptoms, but you do not clearly understand the malady. And you certainly do not understand how to treat it: you only do disservice when you dole out your lofty clinical advice. So your great prescription is that in order for one's motivations to be properly other-regarding, one has to have assurance in his salvation ( ...[text shortened]... d practical reasons). Your advice, on the other hand, is naive and a waste of time.
Mr Batchelor is entitled to his opinion. In Buddhism the emphasis is on dissolving the ego , in Christianity it is on love. In Christianity the ego does not need to dissappear for there to be love and compassion. It's not the "self" or ego that's the problem but pride and self righteousness. I believe that the ego can be surrendered without being dissolved. But that's an argument we could have on another thread if you care to start one.
07 Nov 08
Originally posted by Rajk999It's common sense if you think about it. You don't need scripture to figure it out. Fear is the opposite of love and if one is not assured before God one is living in the house of fear.
How much of this is clearly written in the Bible ?
Do me 2 favours please.
1. DO NOT PREACH ... (thank you).
2. Just tell me a couple passages. I will look it up. Hold the analysis and if this, then that .. kind of stuff. 🙂
Any good works conceived from a spirit of fear in order to "get" salvation is not focussed on love and self giving , it's not really an act of love. Therefore the purest way to be motivated to love others is from a position of love where one has no need to "get" saved but is simply spreading the love around that has been offered by God in love and grace. Those saved by grace are the only ones totally free to love with no thought of trying to gain anything for themselves.
Did Jesus do good works out of a heart of compassion and love or did he do them out of a heart of fear hoping to "get" saved by his Father? Of course not , he loved others out of a heart that was certain of his relationship with his Father. He loved others as he was loved by his Father. There was assurance and certainty. He loved because his heart was full of love. Our hearts cannot be full of love whilst there is fear of a Father who cannot accept us unconditionally.
Now , what you have to ask yourself Rajk , is whether God wants us to follow the example of Jesus and love others in this assured and calm way that has no ulterior motive to "get" saved. I think you know the answer.
08 Nov 08
Originally posted by knightmeisterAny 'belief' conceived from a spirit of fear in order to 'get' salvation is not focused on the love and
Any good works conceived from a spirit of fear in order to "get" salvation is not focussed on love and self giving , it's not really an act of love.
self giving; it's not really an act of love.
If you 'believe' in Jesus (whatever the attendant beliefs are -- that He's the Son of God, that He died
for your sins, that He's Divine, or whatever) because it grants you salvation, then you're in the
same boat as the person who believes that 'good works' grants you salvation.
Belief (i.e., confession of faith) is a 'work.' However, it's not the only work proscribed by the
authors of the Bible, especially Jesus. Belief of itself has no salvific value, any more than works
do.
Salvation is a free gift, by all reasonable interpretations of Christian Scripture. 'Free' means 'contingent
on nothing.' If salvation is the result of belief, then belief 'gets' you salvation, no matter how you
slice it. And, if belief 'gets' you salvation, then one can be motivated to believe out of the fear
you mentioned (as one can be motivated by fear to do works).
Nemesio
08 Nov 08
Originally posted by knightmeisterAnd then they ask me why do I insult people. I asked nicely for no preaching and just a couple of verses. I got no verses and preaching.
It's common sense if you think about it. You don't need scripture to figure it out. Fear is the opposite of love and if one is not assured before God one is living in the house of fear.
Any good works conceived from a spirit of fear in order to "get" salvation is not focussed on love and self giving , it's not really an act of love. Therefore the ...[text shortened]... and calm way that has no ulterior motive to "get" saved. I think you know the answer.
Thanks for nothing.
08 Nov 08
Originally posted by Rajk999Hey---knight-man, You go for it. Preach all your heart desires. Everybody else hear pontificates until they're blue in the face. No one can deny you the same bombastic joy. 😀
How much of this is clearly written in the Bible ?
Do me 2 favours please.
1. DO NOT PREACH ... (thank you).
2. Just tell me a couple passages. I will look it up. Hold the analysis and if this, then that .. kind of stuff. 🙂
08 Nov 08
Originally posted by Rajk999Could be that "way" you have with people---like screaming DO NOT PREACH? If you'd politely asked him "Sir, please do not to preach as you answer my question below; thank you very much", you might have gotten results.
And then they ask me why do I insult people. I asked nicely for no preaching and just a couple of verses. I got no verses and preaching.
Thanks for nothing.
08 Nov 08
Originally posted by PinkFloydI see. Thanks for the tip.
Could be that "way" you have with people---like screaming DO NOT PREACH? If you'd politely asked him "Sir, please do not to preach as you answer my question below; thank you very much", you might have gotten results.
So if I were extremely nice to KM he would have produced the verses. From where? There are NO verses to support the rubbish he wrote. Its HIS COMMON SENSE. Does your doctrine rely on KM's common sense? Mine does not.
08 Nov 08
Originally posted by kirksey957Why do you ask?
Do you think Elizabeth Dole is saved?
http://crooksandliars.com/logan-murphy/kay-hagan-sues-elizabeth-dole-over-de
I know I'm saved, and I know that those that are closest to me are saved, but I don't know for sure about any one else that I don't know personally.
Let's be honest here. What is salvation? Salvation from what? Salvation to what?
I'm not the one that defines salvation.
If one believes in God, that there is a creator God, and that God Himself has expressed His will and purpose to us, and that His will and purpose has been made known to us through His word the Bible, then the answer to what salvation is, who gets it, who doesn't, and everything else, is contained in the Bible.
To be perfectly honest, I've never heard you make a positive statement concerning your faith, and why you believe the way you do.
You have, as far as I can tell, never made the case for what you believe, and why, in this forum. Why not? After all, isn't that what this format is for? To make the case for truth?