Originally posted by black beetle==================================
jaywill pal,
the Atticists wanted only to keep the language of their fathers intact, nothing more and nothing less. Their rhetorics of the Atticists were so strong that the first Christians (John, Gregory etc) were oblidged to learn perfectly AtticoIonian (and) Rhetoric in order to prove that they were as wise and skillful as their opponents, and of ...[text shortened]... exelixis, the everyday meaning of the word "kolasi" today is "hell" with fire and all.
the Atticists wanted only to keep the language of their fathers intact, nothing more and nothing less. Their rhetorics of the Atticists were so strong that the first Christians (John, Gregory etc) were oblidged to learn perfectly AtticoIonian (and) Rhetoric in order to prove that they were as wise and skillful as their opponents, and of course in order to become able to tackle the non believers with their apologetics. So the Christians switched to the Atticism because they had to.
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Thankyou for that information. It seems interesting. In the future I may learn more about that.
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Thanks to these bright Christian scholars, which in fact they became excellent Atticists, the scriptures did gained status and in addition the Christian word was perfectly spread by far better.
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Some of the martyrs who shed their blood for the sake of the Gospel probably were not scholars. Thier testimony did much to cause the faith to grow. They lived the life of Christ.
Some of the intellectual class were enfluenced by scholarly writings. Many others by the purity and Christilikeness of peasants who believed the Gospel.
The Body of Christ needs all manner of disciples to spread the faith.
I have stop here for now.
Originally posted by jaywillRight.
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the Atticists wanted only to keep the language of their fathers intact, nothing more and nothing less. Their rhetorics of the Atticists were so strong that the first Christians (John, Gregory etc) were oblidged to learn perfectly AtticoIonian (and) Rhetoric in order to prove that they were as wise and skillful as their ...[text shortened]... Body of Christ needs all manner of disciples to spread the faith.
I have stop here for now.
But it 's tell telling to think about the conditions after that wild early period in which the martyrs were murdered, when the Christians were finally accepted thanks to Constantine and the Christian religion became the main power of the system. The dominating Christians had to promote their theology in detail, and Atticism became their perfect tool. In fact they forwarded their theology as a full philosophical system -this would be an impossible mission if the scriptures were not taken seriously from everybody, the peasant and the scholar and the merchant and all alike.
Unfortunately, later on, when the common people were forced to follow the usually different interpretation of each Christian scholar in order to grasp the "real meaning" and "the Truth" of the scriptures, Christianity stumbled for good on the problem of the herecies: everybody was proposing his own interpretation big time -the rest is history, my friend jaywill, and every Christian individual still debates over "the Truth", I mean the truth of his personal denomination.
Going back to Ecclesiastes to make the torment, hurt, punishment of the lake of fire somehow go away is very unconvincing. It appears as grasping at straws to deny what one cannot stand to accept.
well jaywill if you want to deny the inspiration of scripture then who am i to chastise you?
interestingly you and that bad ol putty cat seem to have ignored many more scriptural references which have a bearing on this, simply because they do not comply with your theology
for example
1.the fact that satan is destroyed - hebrews 2;14
2.the word "everlasting" is used of a result, not a process. Similarly, "eternal judgment" (Heb. 6:2) and "eternal redemption" (Heb. 9:12) do not mean that judgment and redemption will continue throughout eternity, but rather that their results are eternal.
3.The wicked are to suffer torment at the Judgment Day (Matt. 8:12; 13:30, 40-42, 49-50; Luke 12:47,48), but this is not eternal torment. Other Scriptures either state or imply a termination of the torment. For example:
a. Speaking of those who "know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ", the Apostle Paul states that they "shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power." (2 Thess. 1:9)
b. Jesus stated that "if a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned." (John 15:6). To be "cast forth as a branch" and "burned" suggests termination of the burning when that which is burnable is consumed.
c. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake . . . to shame and everlasting contempt." (Dan. 12:2 cf. Jn. 5:29) It is the contempt or damnation which is everlasting, not the conscious torment
And while you seem to have a preference for the words of historians and other theologians i thought we might consider some details that the Jewish historian Josephus offers concerning the beliefs of the Pharisees, the enemies of Christ , and how remarkably similar they are to your own, to wit, he observes: 'they believe that souls have power to survive death and that there are rewards and punishments under the earth for those who have led lives of virtue or vice: eternal imprisonment is the lot of evil souls, while the good souls receive an easy passage to a new life.' (Jewish Antiquities, XVIII, 14) 'Every soul, they maintain, is imperishable, but the soul of the good alone passes into another body, while the souls of the wicked suffer eternal punishment.'
now isn't that remarkable and worthy of note, how did the pharisees come to adopt such a stance considering that there is no record of such in the Hebrew scriptures?
perhaps the words of the Grecian philosopher Plato may suffice, for it is well documented that the Hebrews became Grecian to an extreme degree and that platonic philosophical content became their dogma, as is the case with 'Christians who profess this idea', for in his dialogue Gorgias he speaks of the eternal punishments, a thought later adopted by 'Christians.' here i reproduce Plato's Myth of Er for your perusal;
'[Er] was slain in battle, and ten days afterwards, when the bodies of the dead were taken up already in a state of corruption, his body was found unaffected by decay, and carried away home to be buried. And on the twelfth day, as he was lying on the funeral pile, he returned to life and told them what he had seen in the other world. He said that when his soul left the body he went on a journey with a great company, and that they came to a mysterious place at which there were two openings in the earth; they were near together, and over against them were two other openings in the heaven above. In the intermediate space there were judges seated, who commanded the just, after they had given judgment on them and had bound their sentences in front of them, to ascend by the heavenly way on the right hand; and in like manner the unjust were bidden by them to descend by the lower way on the left hand; these also bore the symbols of their deeds, but fastened on their backs. He drew near, and they told him that he was to be the messenger who would carry the report of the other world to men, and they bade him hear and see all that was to be heard and seen in that place. Then he beheld and saw on one side the souls departing at either opening of heaven and earth when sentence had been given on them; and at the two other openings other souls, some ascending out of the earth dusty and worn with travel, some descending out of heaven clean and bright. And arriving ever and anon they seemed to have come from a long journey, and they went forth with gladness into the meadow, where they encamped as at a festival; and those who knew one another embraced and conversed, the souls which came from earth curiously enquiring about the things above, and the souls which came from heaven about the things beneath. And they told one another of what had happened by the way, those from below weeping and sorrowing at the remembrance of the things which they had endured and seen in their journey beneath the earth (now the journey lasted a thousand years), while those from above were describing heavenly delights and visions of inconceivable beauty. The story. . . would take too long to tell; but the sum was this:--He said that for every wrong which they had done to any one they suffered tenfold; or once in a hundred years--such being reckoned to be the length of man's life, and the penalty being thus paid ten times in a thousand years. If, for example, there were any who had been the cause of many deaths, or had betrayed or enslaved cities or armies, or been guilty of any other evil behavior, for each and all of their offenses they received punishment ten times over, and the rewards of beneficence and justice and holiness were in the same proportion. I need hardly repeat what he said concerning young children dying almost as soon as they were born. Of piety and impiety to gods and parents, and of murderers, there were retributions other and greater far which he described. He mentioned that he was present when one of the spirits asked another, 'Where is Ardiaeus the Great?' (Now this Ardiaeus lived a thousand years before the time of Er: he had been the tyrant of some city of Pamphylia, and had murdered his aged father and his elder brother, and was said to have committed many other abominable crimes.) The answer of the other spirit was: 'He comes not hither and will never come. And this,' said he, 'was one of the dreadful sights which we ourselves witnessed. We were at the mouth of the cavern, and, having completed all our experiences, were about to reascend, when all of a sudden Ardiaeus appeared and several others, most of whom were tyrants; and there were also besides the tyrants private individuals who had been great criminals: they were, as they fancied, about to return into the upper world, but the mouth, instead of admitting them, gave a roar, whenever any of these incurable sinners or someone who had not been sufficiently punished tried to ascend; and then wild men of fiery aspect, who were standing by and heard the sound, seized them and carried them off; and Ardiaeus and others they bound head and foot and hand, and threw them down and flayed them with scourges, and dragged them along the road at the side, carding them on thorns like wool, and declaring to the passers-by what were their crimes, and that they were being taken away to be cast into hell.'
all of these pre christian and essentialy pagan concepts bare a remarkable and noteworthy similarity to your own theology, do they not, could it be they are from one and the same source?
Originally posted by robbie carrobie=============================
Going back to Ecclesiastes to make the torment, hurt, punishment of the lake of fire somehow go away is very unconvincing. It appears as grasping at straws to deny what one cannot stand to accept.
well jaywill if you want to deny the inspiration of scripture then who am i to chastise you?
interestingly you and that bad ol putty cat seem to hav It is the contempt or damnation which is everlasting, not the conscious torment
have ignored many more scriptural references which have a bearing on this, simply because they do not comply with your theology
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Let's see what you say I ignored.
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1.the fact that satan is destroyed - hebrews 2;14
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In the subjective experience of those who give themselves wholly to the indwelling Christ, they will notice that the Holy Spirit destroys the Devil in thier experience.
The Christian who apply the Holy Spirit experience the defeat of Satan subjectively in thier individual and collective church life.
The final execution of Satan by throwing Satan into the lake of fire will come after the millennial kingdom (Rev. 20:10). This rebel is defeated in successive and progressive stages. One level of defeat was when Christ died and rose. Another level of defeat is as the believers are saturated with the Spirit of Christ to crush Satan under the feet of the new testament church.
"Now the God of peace will crush Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus be with you." (Romans 16:20)
The deeper the overcomig believers enjoy the grace of the indwelling Spirit of Christ which is in them the more Satan's work in them is destroyed. God must have the testimony of this experiencial victory over the Devil before He literally sends him to the eternal damnation.
I do believe that Christ destroyed the Devil on the cross. I do not use this passage to deny that Satan will be cast into eternal perdition at the end of the millennial kingdom as taught in Revelation 20:10.
2.the word "everlasting" is used of a result, not a process. Similarly, "eternal judgment" (Heb. 6:2) and "eternal redemption" (Heb. 9:12) do not mean that judgment and redemption will continue throughout eternity, but rather that their results are eternal.
I did not ignore this. I pointed out that having no rest day and night forever and ever in Rev. 14:11 is definitely a ongoing process. This specific description of the lost's torment is regardless of Hebrews 6:2 and 9:12)
I did not ignore your point. It appears that you ignored my reply.
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3.The wicked are to suffer torment at the Judgment Day (Matt. 8:12; 13:30, 40-42, 49-50; Luke 12:47,48), but this is not eternal torment. Other Scriptures either state or imply a termination of the torment. For example:
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This complaint is based on the assumption that all punishment of sin is eternal. There is remedial punishment for correction. This fact however does not negate that there is ALSO eternal punishment.
1.) Matthew 8:12 - "the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into the outer darkness. In that place there will be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth."
The outer darkness is another place of punishment beside the lake of fire. The outer darkness is outside of the glory of Christ's earthly reign during the millennial kingdom.
Some defeated believers who did not overcome to be victorious will be disciplined by being cast into the outer darkness. In this passage the Lord Jesus refers to "the sons of the kingdom". Yet in Matthew 13:38 He says "and the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom". Verse 43 proves that the sons of the kingdom are those justified to be righteous.
Therefore some sons of the kingdom are defeated and will not be rewarded with the millennial kingdom. And some other sons of the kingdom will be overcomers to be rewarded to "shine forth like the sun in the kingdom of theeir Father."
So the sons of the kingdom cast into outer darkness are Christians who in the church age were so defeated that they receive disciplinary punishment during the 1,000 year millennial kingdom.
NOTE to Epi. Epi if you are reading I would recollect that you highly recommended Watchman Nee's book Spiritual Authority. And on this point of believers being cast into the outer darkness I would recommend that you read two other books by the same Watchman Nee:
1. The King and the Kingdom of the Heavens
2. The Gospel of God, Volume II
If you highly regard Watchman Nee, you will see in these two books the scriptural basis upon which I state that some believers as sons of the kingdom will be cast temporarily into the outer darkness. This is not eternal perdition as many assume.
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a. Speaking of those who "know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ", the Apostle Paul states that they "shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power." (2 Thess. 1:9)
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I don't think I ignored this point either. I pointed out that to those described as being thrown into the lake of fire, the torment of which is described in Rev. 14:11 and 20:10 certainly fit the description of under going "everlasting destruction."
I do not think you can your 2 Thess 1:9 to prove that annhilation awaits those going to the lake of fire to be tormented. Second Thess. 1:9 does not prove the oblivion or non-existence of those thus judged.
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b. Jesus stated that "if a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned." (John 15:6). To be "cast forth as a branch" and "burned" suggests termination of the burning when that which is burnable is consumed.
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Here again I may not have made a long post on this point. But I did not ignore it.
This action in John 15 I believe is not eternal punishment. But it is unpleasant, to be avoided, and correctional. It is not conceavable to me that the Apostle John would contradict himself and the Lord's teaching by now teaching that disciples could perish forever.
Cut off branches from the True Vine must be in the same class as "sons of the kingdom" being cast into outer darkness.
Also so, this buring in John 15 could mean that the believer falls back into the world and into a backslidden life. And in such a life the worldly people effectively "burn" him of the life juice within so that he becomes a dried up backslider.
"They gather them" might refer not to angels but to fleshly and worldly people who gather defeated Christians to their godless way of life rendering the defeated believer unable to bear fruit for Christ.
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c. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake . . . to shame and everlasting contempt." (Dan. 12:2 cf. Jn. 5:29) It is the contempt or damnation which is everlasting, not the conscious torment
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You are not doing too well on passages which you say I ignored. I did not ignore Daniel either.
Go back and read. I said that it was unlikely that this would not mean eternal perdition. That is because the teaching of Isaiah 66:24 and used by Jesus in Mark 9:48 emphasizes the endless suffering of the final judgment of man - "For their worm will not die".
This expression was used by Christ to warn of a punishment which has no cessation.
" ... it is better for you to enter into life lame than to have two feet and be thrown into Gehenna. And if your eye stumbles you, cast it out; it is better for you to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into Gehenna. WHERE THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED."
This is a difficult passage because it is spoken to His disciples. And I am not at this time giving a fuller interpretation to it.
Suffice it to say that the way Jesus refers to Isaiah 66:24 it strongly suggests that He is emphasizing the endless misery of those cast into this Gehenna.
But we could have a thread on this passage alone if you want more discussion of it.
This is perhaps your strongest complaint. But I did not ignore it before and do not do so now. And it requires more explanation than I am giving you in this post.
Important points to remember about this post:
1.) A teaching of eternal perdition in the second death - the lake of fire, does NOT preclude that all judgment mentioned by Jesus refers to the lake of fire. Ie. - the outer darkness where there is also weeping and gnashing of teeth.
2.) A teaching of eternal perdition in the second death - the lake of fire, does NOT preclude that Jesus cannot severely yet temporarily discipline for correction His own people after His second coming. The sons of the kingdom can be temporarily disciplined.
3.) A teaching of eternal perdition in the second death - the lake of fire, does not even preclude that NO Christian could be HURT by it temporarily.
Epi might strongly disagree. And I respect his view. But I would recommend that he read The Gospel of God, Volume 2 by Watchman Nee and The King and the Kingdom of the Heavens by the same teacher on this point.
I would also recommend the writings of Robert Govette on the kingdom rewards and disciplines in the coming millennial kingdom.
Robert, do you require more elaboration from me on any of these "ignored" points above ?
Originally posted by jaywillthat the crushing of Satan is subjective i do not buy, that it is an experience, no no, i do not buy that either, in fact its almost incredulous that you try to interpret this scripture this way, considering that it is Christ himself who destroys, not the individual, nor do your 'supporting texts make this inference, for it has nothing to do with 'works', and is nothing more than an attempt to 'water down', the word of god!
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have ignored many more scriptural references which have a bearing on this, simply because they do not comply with your theology
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Let's see what you say I ignored.
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1.the fact that satan is destroyed - hebrews 2;14
======================= ...[text shortened]... from me on any of these "ignored" points above ?
whether the punishment is eternal, i do not agree that the process is eternal, no no, its is the result of the punishment not the act of punishment, because the antithesis of the scripture is intended, life for righteous, the opposite of life, death for the unrepentant and its basis is not on different degrees of punishment, the idea of which is as i have stated in my later post platonic, you did this much, you will receive this much pain? but are harmonized with other passages of scripture, which you side step not by way of explanation but by siting more scriptures, its nothing short of a smoke screen and a cover up!
no jaywill no need for any further explanation, i have heard quite enough thanks.
Originally posted by robbie carrobie==============================
that the crushing of Satan is subjective i do not buy, that it is an experience, no no, i do not buy that either, in fact its almost incredulous that you try to interpret this scripture this way, considering that it is Christ himself who destroys, not the individual, nor do your 'supporting texts make this inference, for it has nothing to do with 'w er up!
no jaywill no need for any further explanation, i have heard quite enough thanks.
that the crushing of Satan is subjective i do not buy,
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Even if you are ignorant of principles of spiritual warfare there is no excuse for using Hebrews 2:14 to concoct a heresy that Rev. 20:10 will not take place. This is just you selectively going through the Bible using verse to fight against other verses according to your false teaching.
There are plenty of exhortations to resist, do battle with, and stand in spiritual warfare against this "destroyed" Devil. For example Ephesians chapter 6 is addressed to Christians after the Devil destroying death of Christ. And there the apostle says "Put on the whole armor of God that you may be able to stand against the strategems of the devil."
Subjectively, the victory of the saints depends on our faith that Christ has overcome the Devil. The Christians still need to put on the breastplate, sword, shield of New Testament spirituality to stand against this "destroyed" enemy.
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that it is an experience, no no, i do not buy that either, in fact its almost incredulous that you try to interpret this scripture this way,
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Then explain why Ephesians 6:11-17 tells the Christian to take up the whole armor of God against this spiritual enemy ?
"Put on the whole armor of God that you may be able to stand against the strategems of the devil, For our wrestling is not against blood and flesh but against the rulers, against the world-rulers of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenlies.
Therefore take up the whole armor of God that you may be able to withstandstand in the evil day, and having done all to stand.
Stand therefore, having girded your loins with truth and having put on the breastplate of righteousness
And having shod your feet with the firm foundation of the gospel of peace;
Besides all these , having taken up the shield of faith, with which you may be able to qquench all the flamingg darts of the evil one. ... etc."
You say none of these exhortations are necessary because of Hebrews 2:14? Then you are ignorant of the nature of the Christian life.
You may be in a Christless and fleshly cult imitating as a counterfeit the Christian church.
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considering that it is Christ himself who destroys, not the individual, nor do your 'supporting texts make this inference,
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Additional naivete here. "And they [the overcoming Christians] overcame him [the Devil] because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they loved not their soul life even unto death." (Rev. 12:11)
The Christians subjective victory is based on Christ's victory. We fight by being one with Him and His attainment and accomplishment and promises.
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for it has nothing to do with 'works', and is nothing more than an attempt to 'water down', the word of god!
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The works are not for being eternally redeemed. These are the works of Christ working within one to fill him up with Himself.
These are not works to be saved from eternal punishment. These are works, once having been redeemed, to live an overcoming life in oneness with Christ:
"For the Son of Man is to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will repay each man according to his doings." (Matt. 16:27)
"So then, my beloved, ... work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who operates in you both the willing and the WORKING for His good pleasure." (See Phil. 2:12,13)
There is a WORKING done in the Christian life to overcome by the God who is operating within the believers.
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whether the punishment is eternal, i do not agree that the process is eternal, no no, its is the result of the punishment not the act of punishment, because the antithesis of the scripture is intended, life for righteous, the opposite of life, death for the unrepentant and its basis is not on different degrees of punishment,
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Degrees of punishment, which we do see in the New Testament as well as degrees of reward, do not preclude that there is no eternal perdition.
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the idea of which is as i have stated in my later post platonic, you did this much, you will receive this much pain? but are harmonized with other passages of scripture, which you side step not by way of explanation but by siting more scriptures, its nothing short of a smoke screen and a cover up!
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Using additional Scriptures was done by Jesus Himself when tempted by the Devil. The principle is that you not only learn what the Bible says, you have to learn what the Bible ALSO says.
You learn not only what is written, you must learn again what else is written. Otherwise you can be deceived by the enemy as the Jehovah Witnesses have been deceived.
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no jaywill no need for any further explanation, i have heard quite enough thanks.
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At this point the feeling is mutual. I think I have heard enough of your errors which you learned from the Watchtower Society also.
Originally posted by jaywillyou can say what you like jawill, each and ever source was taken from the public domain, from universalism web sites, from christidelphian, from merely interested individuals, from classical scholars, from jewish historians, even from orthodox Christians, but most importantly from the scriptures themselves, not once did i even go near a web site of Jehovah witnesses i think, there was no need as this heresy of yours is well founded in classical mythology, is historically pagan, has been proven to be textually and scripturally wrong, in almost each and every case i listed the source something that even that bad ol putty cat epiphinehas did not do, my goodness i even visited the sites that he lifted his material from to check the accuracy of his statement, it made no difference because IT MAY BE NEWS JAYWILL BUT NOT ALL CHRISTIANS ACCEPT THIS TEACHING, in the course of my research i unearthed a plethora of those who don't, for the reasons sited above. it is not i who have been misled, no no, but your adherence to your dogma that is blinding you to the truth, what can i say other than the words of the Christ himself Matthew 15:6 -
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that the crushing of Satan is subjective i do not buy,
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Even if you are ignorant of principles of spiritual warfare there is no excuse for using Hebrews 2:14 to concoct a heresy that Rev. 20:10 will not take place. This is just you selectively going throu rd enough of your errors which you learned from the Watchtower Society also.[/b]
'And so you have made the word of God invalid because of your tradition. You hypocrites, Isaiah aptly prophesied about you, when he said, ‘This people honors me with their lips, yet their heart is far removed from me. It is in vain that they keep worshiping me, because they teach commands of men as doctrines.'
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you can say what you like jawill, each and ever source was taken from the public domain, from universalism web sites, from christidelphian, from merely interested individuals, from classical scholars, from jewish historians, even from orthodox Christians, but most importantly from the scriptures themselves, not once did i even go near a web site of Jehovah witnesses
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Duely noted.
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i think, there was no need as this heresy of yours is well founded in classical mythology, is historically pagan, has been proven to be textually and scripturally wrong,
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I think you did not succeed to demonstrate that the doctrine of eternal retribution is not biblical. You raised some objections, most of which I addressd. One or two I gave briefer attention to because we write posts here rather than chapters.
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IT MAY BE NEWS JAYWILL BUT NOT ALL CHRISTIANS ACCEPT THIS TEACHING,
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I am aware of that. I do not defend eternal retribution because I like the idea. I do so to be faithful to the Bible.
The rejection of Christ's teaching on it is a persistent human idea which is offended at the thought that God would punish forever. This is a great blow to human pride.
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in the course of my research i unearthed a plethora of those who don't, for the reasons sited above. it is not i who have been misled, no no, but your adherence to your dogma that is blinding you to the truth, what can i say other than the words of the Christ himself Matthew 15:6 -
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I think you failed to demonstrate that your view was more sound biblically.
Now if that is all you have to say, I think I will leave this thread for more talk about "Hear the Gospel". Maybe the thread on Hell is a better place to debate this issue of Universalism verses the word of the Bible on eternal retribution.
Originally posted by black beetle=================================
Right.
But it 's tell telling to think about the conditions after that wild early period in which the martyrs were murdered, when the Christians were finally accepted thanks to Constantine and the Christian religion became the main power of the system. The dominating Christians had to promote their theology in detail, and Atticism became their perfec ...[text shortened]... individual still debates over "the Truth", I mean the truth of his personal denomination.
Unfortunately, later on, when the common people were forced to follow the usually different interpretation of each Christian scholar in order to grasp the "real meaning" and "the Truth" of the scriptures, Christianity stumbled for good on the problem of the herecies: everybody was proposing his own interpretation big time -the rest is history, my friend jaywill, and every Christian individual still debates over "the Truth", I mean the truth of his personal denomination.
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There is some truth to what you wrote. But it is not totally true. If it were then I would say that the prophecy of Christ that He would build His church cannot and will not be fulfilled.
The truth is in the Person of Jesus. Even correct doctrines can be held with no living touch with Christ, the Person, the truth.
And throughout the ages there has been a line of those who were and have remained in a life union with the resurrected Christ, the Person of Truth Himself.
Probably two Christians would not agree on every single detail of doctrine. But I can testify that I have witnessed real life unity in the Spirit and oneness on major aspects of our faith.
So if you are proposing that the gates of hell have prevailed against the Church which Christ said He would build because of debates over doctines, I would say that you are wrong there.
There is a unity of the Spirit that we already HAVE. We just need to keep it. And there is a oneness of the Faith at which we will all arrive. The church is therefore victorious, glorious, and cannot be defeated even by doctrinal debates.
Originally posted by jaywilllol, as you wish lord Vader, but as for me i will never come over to the dark side for each and every biblical inference has been accounted for biblicaly, with regards to time and duration, with regards to etymology, with regards to immediate context, with regards to greater context, with regards to gods personality, with regards to logic and reason, with regards to prophecy and symbolism, with regards to original languages and contemporary thought of the time, however there is one perplexing thing that remains unanswered, how do you account for the platonic element in pharisiacal thinking, which i demonstrated was almost identical to your own, i produce a timeline for your benefit
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you can say what you like jawill, each and ever source was taken from the public domain, from universalism web sites, from christidelphian, from merely interested individuals, from classical scholars, from jewish historians, even from orthodox Christians, but most importantly from the scriptures themselves, not once ...[text shortened]... ce to debate this issue of Universalism verses the word of the Bible on eternal retribution.
hell and torment -Babylon - Hinduism - platonic myth and legend - Grecian Jews, Grecian Christians - modern day Christians
it is of incredible interest to note the transmigration of this doctrine from its source, which evidently cannot be denied!
give my regards to the emperor epiphinehas
Originally posted by jaywillI do not know what the "Truth" is as you pose it, jaywill, I know only that you, along with every other decent Christian, you follow a specific doctrine in order to back up your beliefs. I am unable to discriminate the so called correct Christian doctrines from the wrong ones as I am unable to discriminate the Muslim or the Induist denominations etc.
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Unfortunately, later on, when the common people were forced to follow the usually different interpretation of each Christian scholar in order to grasp the "real meaning" and "the Truth" of the scriptures, Christianity stumbled for good on the problem of the herecies: everybody was proposing his own interpretation big tim ...[text shortened]... hurch is therefore victorious, glorious, and cannot be defeated even by doctrinal debates.
When you say that "...you have witnessed real life unity in the Spirit and oneness on major aspects of your faith", it's fine for me; and when robbie, rajk, epi, KM and the other Christian friends over here you say that you feel your religion and its energy the way you feel it, again is fine for me. For I believe not that there 's a thing such as "the gates of hell" or "the gates of heaven" and I am indifferent to the Church of Jesus, to the Church of Brachmin, to the Church of Muhhamed etc. Therefore I feel that everybody can enjoy his spirituality no matter of the various religious doctrinal debates.
Respect for Life, Peace and Love for all is all we need. Each individual is free to walk his Way.
Originally posted by black beetle======================================
I do not know what the "Truth" is as you pose it, jaywill, I know only that you, along with every other decent Christian, you follow a specific doctrine in order to back up your beliefs. I am unable to discriminate the so called correct Christian doctrines from the wrong ones as I am unable to discriminate the Muslim or the Induist denominations etc.
Life, Peace and Love for all is all we need. Each individual is free to walk his Way.
I do not know what the "Truth" is as you pose it, jaywill, I know only that you, along with every other decent Christian, you follow a specific doctrine in order to back up your beliefs. I am unable to discriminate the so called correct Christian doctrines from the wrong ones as I am unable to discriminate the Muslim or the Induist denominations etc.
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Did you ever read how Jesus said that He would manifest Himself to the disciples in John 14?
He spoke of Another Comforter, the Spirit of Truth or as RsV has it the Spirit of reality.
"And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Comforter, that He may be with you forever, Even the Spirit of reality, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not know [Him]; [but] you know Him, becase He abides with you and shall be in you. (vs.16,17)
I will not leave you as orphans; I am coming to you.(v.18)
Yet a little while and the world beholds Me no longer, but you behold Me; because I live you also shall live. (v.19)
In that day you shall know that I am in My Father and you in Me and I in you." (v.20)
This is the promise of Jesus that He would come to His disciples in another form - as the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of reality. This "pneumatic" and indwelling presence of Jesus Christ is a comfort.
Notice that in verse 17 He says that the world cannot receive this Person. Notice also that this Person is with the disciples at that time. Yet He will be in the disciples in the future.
"... [but] you know Him because He abides with you and shall be in you." This means that Jesus Himself was with the disciples but was about to make a step to be IN the disciples as this indwelling Spirit of reality, the another Comforter.
"I will not leave you as orphans; I am coming to you"
This verse does not refer to Jesus coming in a physical way again in His second coming. Though it is true that Jesus physically shall return this verse means that after His resurrection He is coming to live in the disciples in His form as the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of reality.
He will not leave the discples orphans. He will come to them. He is with them. But He will take a further step to be in them. The world cannot receive this reality. The believers in Jesus can receive this Spirit of reality.
This is the truth that I speak of. I do not mean the correctness of some doctrine in a merely objective way. I mean the indwelling presence of Jesus in His form as the life giving Spirit - "The last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45)
The indwelling presence of the life giving Spirit Who is Christ in the form prepared to be imparted to our innermost being is the Truth that I speak of. It is also the truth that the apostle speaks of:
"But holding to truth in love, we may grow up into Him in all things, who is the Head, Christ" (Eph.4:15)
We must be regenerated, born of the Spirit. Then we must hold to the living Person who is the truth. The resurrected and living PERSON is the truth.
The Apostle John also confirms " ... the Spirit is the reality" (1 John 5:6)
The last Adam, Christ, became a life giving Spirit. And the Spirit is the truth. The Spirit is the reality.
Again: "In this we know that we abide in Him and He in us, that He has given to us of His Spirit." (1 John 4:13) By the indwelling Holy Spirit the disciples know that Jesus is risen from the dead and is alive and has come to live within His believers.
"He who believes into the Son of God has the testimony in himself ..." (1 John 5:10a) The presence of the Spirit of reality is the testimony living IN the disciples testifying to the resurrection and livingness of the Son of God.
"And in this we KNOW that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He gave to us." (1 John 3:14)
I am not trying to make light of debates in Christian history about different doctrinal understandings. I am trying to emphasize the most vital and crucial aspect of the Gospel. Christ the Person is the ultimate truth. Not that He merely came teaching truth so that we may possess truth apart from Him. His Person is that truth:
"I am the way the truth [or reality] and the life." (John 14:6)
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For I believe not that there 's a thing such as "the gates of hell"
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That is an expression which signifies the power of death in all its forms.
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or "the gates of heaven" and I am indifferent to the Church of Jesus, to the Church of Brachmin, to the Church of Muhhamed etc. Therefore I feel that everybody can enjoy his spirituality no matter of the various religious doctrinal debates.
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I am not aware of the expression "gates of heaven".
However, what I have tried to emphasize here is that it is most important to receive this Spirit of Jesus Christ. He is a living Person. He is not a collection of doctrines, albeit more correct or less so.
You would not be the first person to dispair of so many different interpretations of doctrines. If you think that giving up in dispair will help you go ahead and give up in dispair.
Many of us, by the mercy of God, came to realize that the most important matter is the divine Person of Jesus living in us. I am not for wrong interpretations of the Bible. However I am not for having right interpretations and missing the living Person of Christ.
Paul's last written words in the New Testament to Timothy reminded him of the most important thing. The Lord Jesus Himself was within him and with his innermost being - his human spirit:
"The Lord be with your spirit. Grace be with you." (2 Tim 4:22)
If I sense your frustration correctly, and if you really are interested in the truth, I would ask God that He would make the Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit. I would pray with a concentration on receiving the living Person of Christ.
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Respect for Life, Peace and Love for all is all we need. Each individual is free to walk his Way.
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Is that what you want to live by? I want to know the Living Person of the Son of God. I must know HIM. Nothing else I have found compares with Him. He is too valuable and too rich.
But I am a believer and receiver of the Lord Jesus. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.