Originally posted by robbie carrobieI challenge you to provide a legitimate source for your definition of kolasis.
actually in retrospect this also is quite erroneous, because it is not the time period that quantifies or gives characteristics to the translation but the nouns which they accompany, thus the argument is fallacious on this basis.
for example whether it refers to everlasting or for an indefinite period is neither here nor there in this context, t ...[text shortened]... o the idea that to deny one is to deny the other is mince, pure and utter unadulterated mince!
Originally posted by epiphinehaskolasis was you're word not mine, therefore if you want a definition why are you asking me, surely you know what it means? i gave quite a lengthy and detailed reference with regard to the term, 'everlasting punishment', i trust i will not need to do so again, whether its legitimate in your eyes or not, i cannot say, but it was good enough for me, however seeing that you are obviously thirsting for truth and righteousness, i will oblige you AGAIN, but don't make a habit of it,
I challenge you to provide a legitimate source for your definition of kolasis.
Matthew 25:46
"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment."
This passage is used to prove the eternal torment of the wicked. It is argued, that since the same Greek word, "aionios" is used for the duration of life for the righteous as for the punishment of the wicked, therefore the wicked are subject to eternal torment.
1. The punishment is everlasting, but it is not conscious eternal torment. The punishment will be final and complete cutting off. (Psa. 37:9, 34). Life eternal is reserved for the righteous, but the wicked are to die "the second death" (Rev. 21:8) which in Scriptural terms means to be without thoughts. (Psa. 146:3,4; Eccl. 9:5). The word "everlasting" is used of a result, not a process. Similarly, "eternal judgment" (Heb. 6:2) and "eternal redemption" (Heb. 9:12) do not mean that judgment and redemption will continue throughout eternity, but rather that their results are eternal.
2. The wicked are to suffer torment at the Judgment Day (Matt. 8:12; 13:30, 40-42, 49-50; Luke 12:47,48), but this is not eternal torment. Other Scriptures either state or imply a termination of the torment. For example:
1. Speaking of those who "know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ", the Apostle Paul states that they "shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power." (2 Thess. 1:9).
2. Jesus stated that "if a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned." (John 15:6). To be "cast forth as a branch" and "burned" suggests termination of the burning when that which is burnable is consumed.
3. "And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake . . . to shame and everlasting contempt." (Dan. 12:2 cf. Jn. 5:29) It is the contempt or damnation which is everlasting, not the conscious torment.
3. Even if by "everlasting punishment" is meant "everlasting conscious torment", this passage in itself does not prove the eternal torment of the wicked since the Greek word, "aionios", can mean either limited or unlimited duration.1 Although the New Testament nearly always uses "aionios" with the meaning of unlimited duration,2 there are a number of occurrences in the Septuagint3 (where the Hebrew equivalent "olam" is translated "aionios" in which a limited duration is obviously intended. For example:
1. "The lasting [aionios] hills"; "The eternal God is thy refuge and underneath are the everlasting [aionios] arms." (Deut. 33:15,27). The intended meaning of "aionios" is limited duration in the first reference whereas in the same chapter the second reference is to unlimited duration.
2. The Aaronic priesthood is termed, "an everlasting [aionios] priesthood throughout their generation." (Exod. 40:15). Limited duration is intended in this reference since the Aaronic priesthood was later to change (Heb. 7:12) when that which "waxed old" was ready to "vanish away". (Heb. 8:13).
3. See also Gen. 49:26; Exod. 12:17; 21:6; Jonah 2:6; Hab. 3:6 ("perpetual" hills = "aionios" hills).
4. Many passages in Scripture teach that eternal life is the reward for the righteous (e.g. Luke 20:35,36). There are also many passages which teach that the ungodly and wicked will be destroyed or perish (e.g. 1 Thess. 4:13 cf. John 3:16; 2 Thess. 1:9). It is not therefore, merely an arbitrary decision to choose endless duration for "aionios" life of the righteous and limited duration for "aionios" punishment of the wicked. The decision has been based on the use of the Greek word elsewhere in Scripture and the teaching of other passages on the respective rewards of the righteous and wicked.
5. The word "punishment" is translated from the Greek word, "kolasis" which means "a pruning". It comes from the verb, "kolazo" which means "to curtail, dock, prune, but usually like Lat., 'castigare' to keep within bounds, check, chastise."4 This denotation is in complete harmony with the Scriptural teaching on the punishment of the wicked. Jesus said that the wicked would be cast like branches into the fire. (John 15:6). The Psalmist said they would be "cut off" (Psa. 37:9) and "shall not be". (Psa. 37:10). Malachi states that the wicked will be burnt like stubble leaving them "neither root nor branch" (Mal. 4:1), like "ashes" to be trodden under foot. (Mal. 4:3). This is not the kind of language one would associate with immortal souls in torment for eternity.
Footnotes:
1. "Aionios" means "age-lasting", Robert Young, Analytical Concordance to the Holy Bible, (London: Lutterworth Press, 1965). Return
2. Two N.T. passages should be noted: The "eternal fire" (Grk: aionios) which consumed Sodom and Gomorrha (Jude 7) is not now burning. (cf. Lam. 4:6; 2 Pet. 2:6; Deut. 29:23). Similarly, Philemon is instructed to receive Onesimus "forever" (Grk: aionios). (Philemon. 15). Return
3. In the 3rd century B.C., the Greek king Ptolemy of Egypt commissioned the translation of the Hebrew Scriptures into Greek. This translation is now known as the "LXX" or the Septuagint Version. Return
4. Ethelbert S. Bullinger, A Critical Lexicon and Concordance to the English and Greek Testament, (London: Samuel Bagster and Sons Ltd., 1957), p. 612. "Kolasis" is translated "torment" in 1 Jn. 4:18 and "torment" is one of the meanings given for "kolasis" in James Strong, Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, (New York: Abington Press, 1951).
http://www.wrestedscriptures.com/B03Hell/matthew25v46.html😏
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1. The punishment is everlasting, but it is not conscious eternal torment.
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Then why does Revelation 14:11 say they have no rest?
"And the smoke of their tormenting goes up forever and ever; and they have no rest day and night .."
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The punishment will be final and complete cutting off. (Psa. 37:9, 34).
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Who can deny that the wicked being tormented forever and ever with no rest have indeed been cut off ? Cut off there does not have to mean annhilation but total nullification.
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Life eternal is reserved for the righteous, but the wicked are to die "the second death" (Rev. 21:8) which in Scriptural terms means to be without thoughts. (Psa. 146:3,4; Eccl. 9:5).
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It is unusual to go back to the Old Testament to find the definition of the second death when the definition is plainly given in the New Testament:
"This is the second death, the lake of fire." (Rev. 20:14)
The same lake of fire in which the tormented have no rest day and night in Revelation 14:11.
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The word "everlasting" is used of a result, not a process.
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Having "no rest day and night" is a process.
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Similarly, "eternal judgment" (Heb. 6:2) and "eternal redemption" (Heb. 9:12) do not mean that judgment and redemption will continue throughout eternity, but rather that their results are eternal.
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Revelation 14:11 says that the smoke of their tormenting goes up forever and ever. It did not say the smoke of their annhilation did so. Furthermore this judgment is discribed as the "undiluted" wrath of God. In otherwords a final and ultimate wrath not tempered or restrained by any mercy:
"He also shall drink of the wine of the fury of God, which is mixed UNDILUTED in the cup of His wrath ...".
God often tempered His anger with a dilution of some amount of mercy. In this case with the worshippers of the Antichrist it says His wrath is undiluted. Annhilation would be a dilution.
Your list is long and will have to be dealt with in time, one at a time.
Originally posted by robbie carrobie[/b] ===================================
[b]kolasis was you're word not mine, therefore if you want a definition why are you asking me, surely you know what it means? i gave quite a lengthy and detailed reference with regard to the term, 'everlasting punishment', i trust i will not need to do so again, whether its legitimate in your eyes or not, i cannot say, but it was good enough for me, ho ]
1. Speaking of those who "know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ", the Apostle Paul states that they "shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power." (2 Thess. 1:9).
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Having no rest day and night forever and ever (See Rev. 14:11), would indeed be an everlasting destruction.
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2. Jesus stated that "if a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned." (John 15:6). To be "cast forth as a branch" and "burned" suggests termination of the burning when that which is burnable is consumed.
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This passage I take to mean those who are eternally saved. For they were abiding branches. So this would be a dispensational and temporary punishment.
Unless you believe that saved disciples of Jesus can lose the gift of eternal redemption, you must conclude that abiding branches which do not bear fruit must refer to saved disciples of Jesus.
Epi and I may not agree on this point. It requires, I think, special attention which I will not give it right now. There are too many other reasons why your interpretations fail.
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3. "And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake . . . to shame and everlasting contempt." (Dan. 12:2 cf. Jn. 5:29) It is the contempt or damnation which is everlasting, not the conscious torment.
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This is not likely the proper interpretation when you consider that Jesus warned that their gnawing worm will not die. See Isaiah 66:24 Compare with Mark 9:48)
Even granting that the "worm" there may mean some gnawing guilt of the conscience rather than a mullusk dwelling in fire, it still suggests continued consciousness.
Other replies to follow.
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3. Even if by "everlasting punishment" is meant "everlasting conscious torment", this passage in itself does not prove the eternal torment of the wicked since the Greek word, "aionios", can mean either limited or unlimited duration.
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You said "can mean" which means it does not necessarily HAVE to mean that.
Revelation 2:11 speaks of "the hurt of the second death". If there is a hurt to it then annhilation or unconsciouness would not apply as logically.
I submit that one can be temporarily hurt of the second death or everlastingling be hurt of the second death. In the latter case having no rest day and night (Rev. 14:11) would mean no rest from the hurt of the second death.
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1 Although the New Testament nearly always uses "aionios" with the meaning of unlimited duration,2 there are a number of occurrences in the Septuagint3 (where the Hebrew equivalent "olam" is translated "aionios" in which a limited duration is obviously intended. For example:
1. "The lasting [aionios] hills"; "The eternal God is thy refuge and underneath are the everlasting [aionios] arms." (Deut. 33:15,27). The intended meaning of "aionios" is limited duration in the first reference whereas in the same chapter the second reference is to unlimited duration.
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This analysis of AIONIOS as you wish to apply it will require me to reveiw some matters before I respond.
Originally posted by robbie carrobieThe word "punishment" is translated from the Greek word, "kolasis" which means "a pruning". It comes from the verb, "kolazo" which means "to curtail, dock, prune, but usually like Lat., 'castigare' to keep within bounds, check, chastise."
kolasis was you're word not mine, therefore if you want a definition why are you asking me, surely you know what it means? i gave quite a lengthy and detailed reference with regard to the term, 'everlasting punishment', i trust i will not need to do so again, whether its legitimate in your eyes or not, i cannot say, but it was good enough for me, ho ...[text shortened]...
The above statement is misleading ("The word 'punishment' is translated from the Greek word, 'kolasis' which means 'a pruning'..." ). Kolasis does not mean 'a pruning' - that definition is reserved for the word kolazo, and kolazo does not appear anywhere in Matthew 25:46. If kolazo and kolasis are as indiscriminately interchangeable as you suggest, it makes one wonder why there are two separate terms to begin with. If we can assume that the authors of the Koine Greek NT were fluent in their own language, can't we also assume that if they intended the specific variation of meaning which you suggest exists in Matthew 25:46 ("a pruning..." ) that they would have used kolazo instead of kolasis? Your post suggests that the two terms are interchangeable, but I see absolutely no reason to think so.
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1 Although the New Testament nearly always uses "aionios" with the meaning of unlimited duration,2 there are a number of occurrences in the Septuagint3 (where the Hebrew equivalent "olam" is translated "aionios" in which a limited duration is obviously intended. For example:
1. "The lasting [aionios] hills"; "The eternal God is thy refuge and underneath are the everlasting [aionios] arms." (Deut. 33:15,27). The intended meaning of "aionios" is limited duration in the first reference whereas in the same chapter the second reference is to unlimited duration.
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Before I comment on the GReek word AIONIOS let's examine some logical implications of relevent passages:
Revelation 20:10 reads "And the devil that decevied them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are also the beast and the false prophet; and they shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."
G.H Lang writes that the Revised Standard Version is unreliable in its translation of this passage. It supplies "were" rather than "are". The incorrect translation of "were" implies that the beast and the false prophet are no longer there in the lake of fire when Satan joins them.
That idea is wrong because the following sentence says "And THEY shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.".
The two people, the beast and the false prophet were cast into the hurtful lake of fire 1,000 years earlier. They "ARE" still there when Satan joins them. And all three as a collective "THEY" will continue to be tormented day night for ever and ever.
There is no hope of understanding this punishment as annhilation into unconscious non existence. If God tormented them 1,000 years and then continues for ever and ever to do so then it is a terrible unending "hurt" of the second death (Refer to Rev. 2:11)
If the threesome were unconscious there could be no " TORMENTING ... forever and ever." The unconscious and non-existent are not tormented. And they are not in a situation of "hurt" (Rev. 2:11)
The fire does not end their existence as far as the ability to feel torment or hurt are concerned.
G.H Lang speaks of the Apochryphal usage of the phrase eis tous aionas three centries before the writing of the New Testament. This is not an appeal to the Apochrypha in any sense except to demonstrate what pre-NT writers used the phrase to mean eternal.
The use of eis tous aionas in the Apochryphal Book The Song of the Three Children is note worthy. It shows Greek usage two centries B.C. The three cast by Nebuchadnessar into the fiery furnace are made to glorify God by using 36 times the refrain "praise and super-exalt Him for ever" (ver. 27-65). Here, where the praise of God is the theme, "unto the ages" cannot mean less than "for ever." In the two succeeding verses, which close the Song, the praise and thanks are to be given to God "because His mercy is unto the age" (eis ton aiona), which suggests that the plural and singular forms were used as equivalents, for the attributes of God, such as His mercy, are of equal duration with His person, and are ground for everlasting worship."
[The Last Assize, A Review of the Doctrines of UNIVERSAL RESTRORATION, ANNHILATION, and PUNISHMENT, G.H. Lang, Conley & Schoettle Co. Inc, 1985, page 43]
Originally posted by epiphinehasHey robbie and epi!
[b]The word "punishment" is translated from the Greek word, "kolasis" which means "a pruning". It comes from the verb, "kolazo" which means "to curtail, dock, prune, but usually like Lat., 'castigare' to keep within bounds, check, chastise."
The above statement is misleading ("The word 'punishment' is translated from the Greek word, 'kolasis' whic ...[text shortened]... terms are interchangeable, but I see absolutely no reason to think so.[/b]
At first keep in mind that the authors of the scriptures were not at all fluent in Greek -to be frank the Atticists, Phrynichus included, were driving crazy because of the totally wrong way the Christian authors were using their broken Greek.
Regarding "kolasis" etc the etymology is:
kolos (short/ crop-tailed/ maimed/ mutilated) < kolasis < kolazo.
At first my ancestors used the verb kolazo in order to define the act of amputation, but later (as bbarr quoted) its meaning changed into the act of check/ control and correction (Plato) -this meaning is not idiosyncratic, bbarr.
It is widely accepted that within the Christian scriptures (Acts 4,21) the verb "kolazo" is used in order to define the act of punishment, whilst later on the verb was used for the definition of several more acts (scandalize, confine, blaim, punish). And "kolasis" means definately "punishment/ amputation", whilst the verb "kolazo" is properly translated as "I amputate, I punish" (but the philosophical term remains check/ control/ adjust/ I make corrections)!
So robbie has definately right when he considers accurate (in a metaphorical sense) the definition "pruning", ie "I adjust/ I make corrections", because this is clearly the philosophical approach of "kolasis" and "kolazo" as already known by Plato.
Regarding "aionion":
Etymology: aion
Originally posted by epiphinehaswhy do we not ask someone who actually speaks Greek as his mother tounge, the illustrious and now fabled beetle, i quote
[b]The word "punishment" is translated from the Greek word, "kolasis" which means "a pruning". It comes from the verb, "kolazo" which means "to curtail, dock, prune, but usually like Lat., 'castigare' to keep within bounds, check, chastise."
The above statement is misleading ("The word 'punishment' is translated from the Greek word, 'kolasis' whic ...[text shortened]... terms are interchangeable, but I see absolutely no reason to think so.[/b]
Regarding "kolasis" etc the etymology is:
kolos (short/ crop-tailed/ maimed/ mutilated) < kolasis < kolazo.
At first my ancestors used the verb kolazo in order to define the act of amputation, but later (as bbarr quoted) its meaning changed into the act of check/ control and correction (Plato) -this meaning is not idiosyncratic, bbarr.
It is widely accepted that within the Christian scriptures (Acts 4,21) the verb "kolazo" is used in order to define the act of punishment, whilst later on the verb was used for the definition of several more acts (scandalize, confine, blaim, punish). And "kolasis" means definitely "punishment/ amputation", whilst the verb "kolazo" is properly translated as "I amputate, I punish" (but the philosophical term remains check/ control/ adjust/ I make corrections)!
So robbie has definately right when he considers accurate (in a metaphorical sense) the definition "pruning"
and in a etymological sense , thankyou beetle!
Originally posted by jaywillThen why does Revelation 14:11 say they have no rest?
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1. The punishment is everlasting, but it is not conscious eternal torment.
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Then why does [b]Revelation 14:11 say they have no rest?
"And the smoke of their tormenting goes up forever and ever; and they have no rest day and night .."
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Your list is long and will have to be dealt with in time, one at a time.[/b]
It is unusual to go back to the Old Testament to find the definition of the second death when the definition is plainly given in the New Testament:
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as i have stated many times jaywill, one must view the scripture in its immediate context and the context of the bible as a whole, all scripture is inspired and beneficial!
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"And the smoke of their tormenting goes up forever and ever; and they have no rest day and night .."
Actually, all this passage says is that the wicked are tormented, not that they are tormented forever. The text states that it is the smoke - the evidence that the fire has done its work of destruction - that continues forever, not the fiery torment.
Revelation 20:10 to 15 says that in 'the lake of fire and sulphur, . . . they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.' granted at first reading, this might sound like proof of eternal conscious torment by fire, but it definitely is not. Why? among other reasons, “the wild beast and the false prophet” and “death and Hades” will end up in what is here called “the lake of fire.” As you may easily conclude jaywill, the beast, the false prophet, death, and hades are not literal persons, therefore, they cannot experience conscious torment, no, no instead consider the words of G. B. Caird in A Commentary on the Revelation of St. John the Divine, “the lake of fire” means “extinction and total oblivion.” This realization should be easily reached, for the Bible itself states about this lake of fire: “This means the second death, the lake of fire.”
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also i think that your other references relate to the final destruction not their torment as has been erroneously asserted, please feel free to take your time, as quite clearly the points raised were many and the implications profound. do you like my little lines dividing up the thoughts?
Originally posted by robbie carrobieYou are welcome🙂
why do we not ask someone who actually speaks Greek as his mother tounge, the illustrious and now fabled beetle, i quote
Regarding "kolasis" etc the etymology is:
kolos (short/ crop-tailed/ maimed/ mutilated) < kolasis < kolazo.
At first my ancestors used the verb kolazo in order to define the act of amputation, but later (as bbarr quoted) its m ...[text shortened]... sense) the definition "pruning"
and in a etymological sense , thankyou beetle!
For some reasons I cannot forward the text reagrding "aion"; I ll try later;