08 Nov 08
1 edit
RC and Raj, it is remarkable how unconscionably you both labor to derail the Lord's work.
This thread was begun for the single purpose of sharing the Gospel - the very message which Christ charged His followers to share with people across the earth, until He returns. People the world over have sacrificed their lives for the purpose of spreading this Gospel and have suffered for refusing to renounce this Gospel. It makes me sick to my stomach to witness people like you introduce heretical notions and instigate pointless squabbles that distract from the Gospel message itself and its potential to save the souls of all who hear it.
It is my prayer that you may recognize the injustice you continually visit upon Jesus Christ by your actions here, before it's too late. Undoubtedly the Lord's forgiveness extends beyond even your present wrong-doing.
It is also my prayer that the Gospel message reach at least one person, despite the nonsense of those who purport to be servants of Christ yet work to destroy the Good News contained in His Gospel message.
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EDIT: RC and Raj, I challenge you to create your own thread in order to share your own unique version of the Gospel. You've created enough havoc here.
08 Nov 08
Originally posted by epiphinehasno, this thread was begun with the sole intention of spreading YOUR version, YOUR interpretation, the basis of which was set in the seeds of YOUR indoctrination and YOUR erroneous dogma, myself and Raj as well as many non believers have recognized this and with the best intentions have tried to draw certain inconsistencies to your attention, however, rather than honestly addressing them and to readjust your thinking in the light of a better understanding, you have made the grievous error that most Christians and the churches they represent perpetuate in that you have doggedly refused to humbly admit that you could be wrong and have persisted in the traditions handed down to you, traditions which none other than the Christ himself states have superseded or negated the word of god, we on the other hand have whenever possible to tried remained entirely objective and open minded, ALWAYS having references for the assertions that we make, i hope you will keep this in mind when hurling your spiritual mortars in the direction of sincere students of Gods Word.
RC and Raj, it is remarkable how unconscionably you both labor to derail the Lord's work.
This thread was begun for the single purpose of sharing the Gospel - the very message which Christ charged His followers to share with people across the earth, until He returns. People the world over have sacrificed their lives for the purpose of spreading this ...[text shortened]... in order to share your own unique version of the Gospel. You've created enough havoc here.
consider the following account
2 kings 5:19, 'So Naaman came with his horses and with his chariot, and stood at the door of the house of Elisha. And Elisha sent a messenger unto him, saying, Go and wash in Jordan seven times, and thy flesh shall come again to thee, and thou shalt be clean. But Naaman was wroth, and went away, and said, Behold, I thought, He will surely come out to me, and stand, and call on the name of the LORD his God, and strike his hand over the place, and recover the leper. Are not Abana and Pharpar, rivers of Damascus, better than all the waters of Israel? may I not wash in them, and be clean? So he turned and went away in a rage. And his servants came near, and spake unto him, and said, My father, if the prophet had bid thee do some great thing, wouldest thou not have done it? how much rather then, when he saith to thee, Wash, and be clean? Then went he down, and dipped himself seven times in Jordan, according to the saying of the man of God: and his flesh came again like unto the flesh of a little child, and he was clean.' -
Naamns problem was that initially he lacked humility and was unwilling to accept humble direction and guidance, and until he did so, he remained in his present state, so to in a spiritual sense, until we are able to humbly accept correction and until such times as we are unwilling to change our thinking to comply more fully with the revealed Word of God because of our dogged persistence to traditions of men, then what can we expect, other than stagnation and error.
08 Nov 08
Originally posted by Rajk999With such a detailled and well thought out counter to my argument before me it's difficult to know where to begin!!! lol
Rubbish
Your response smacks of a strong emotional reaction that is not supported by any rational or spiritual argument. You choose to dismiss that which you don't like with such a broad and unthinking response.
Do you think others will look at your response and think "Oh yes , KM is talking rubbish obviously" OR will they look at it and think "hmmmm Rajk obviously has no answer to the argument and cannot think of how to respond - so he's come up with a cheap and easy jibe"?
08 Nov 08
1 edit
Originally posted by black beetleMy beliefs are only discriminative to the extent to which you misunderstand them and mis represent them. My belief on this actually opens the door to the idea that we are all part of God's plan in some way and all engaged in working with him to bring about a better world.
!!!
Over that debate your thesis, along with the slightly different epi's opinion, was clear to me. However it was quite out of the blue, and the questions posen by Wule and myself remained unanswered.
The fact that I understand fine our opinion (it is not that difficult afterall), which surely you are free to express it, it means not that your opin ast discriminative- beliefs? Is this your interpretation of the concept of the consensus?
🙂
It's actually inclusive if you think about it. I do not go down the line of saying that good works are the sole posession of the church , but instead I am saying that God is at work both outside and inside the church (which is only logical if one believes in God at all) .
So where's your problem. I do not seek to impose my belief system on you , but I reserve the right to see the world the way I see it. Just as you look at the church and might see a load of psychological hysteria , I look at the world and see God at work.
The simple fact is that if one believes then it's ridiculous to think that he can only do things through people within church walls. I understand that the idea that God might be using you to further his purposes (as he is using us all IMO) , but that's the deal as I see it. Wherever there is love ad compassion God is there somewhere. Wherever truth and justice wins out over cruelty and ignorance God is there somewhere doing his thing whether they realise it or not.
Overall this is an inclusive and anti discriminative vision of God that INCLUDES everyone rather than dismissing some good that people have done because it doesn't have a Christian label on it.
08 Nov 08
Originally posted by knightmeisteri thought it was rather apt, succinct and dispensed with much of the verbose language usually characteristic of certain posts, infact it was rather refreshing to see someone use an economy of language, don't you think?
With such a detailled and well thought out counter to my argument before me it's difficult to know where to begin!!! lol
Your response smacks of a strong emotional reaction that is not supported by any rational or spiritual argument. You choose to dismiss that which you don't like with such a broad and unthinking response.
Do you think others w ...[text shortened]... rgument and cannot think of how to respond - so he's come up with a cheap and easy jibe"?
08 Nov 08
Originally posted by epiphinehasYoure attempting to share a gospel fabricated by heretical Christians in the last few hundred years. The gospel you are now preaching was not taught by Paul or Christ.
RC and Raj, it is remarkable how unconscionably you both labor to derail the Lord's work.
This thread was begun for the single purpose of sharing the Gospel - the very message which Christ charged His followers to share with people across the earth, until He returns. People the world over have sacrificed their lives for the purpose of spreading this ...[text shortened]... in order to share your own unique version of the Gospel. You've created enough havoc here.
The idea that any one OF ANY RELIGION could utter the words "WORKS PROFIT NOTHING' is total heresy and completely contrary to everything Christ taught. People like you have created a breed of selfish greedy Christians who will reap their just rewards on judgment day.
You call me a heretic becuase I do not agree with the teachings of man. The true heretic is one who denies the teachings of Christ.
08 Nov 08
Originally posted by robbie carrobieno, this thread was begun with the sole intention of spreading YOUR version, YOUR interpretation, the basis of which was set in the seeds of YOUR indoctrination and YOUR erroneous dogma...
no, this thread was begun with the sole intention of spreading YOUR version, YOUR interpretation, the basis of which was set in the seeds of YOUR indoctrination and YOUR erroneous dogma, myself and Raj as well as many non believers have recognized this and with the best intentions have tried to draw certain inconsistencies to your attention, however, ...[text shortened]... ed persistence to traditions of men, then what can we expect, other than stagnation and error.
The Gospel I share is the same Gospel which the apostles preached.
Please enlighten me to where the apostles have erred.
...myself and Raj as well as many non believers have recognized this and with the best intentions have tried to draw certain inconsistencies to your attention...
You guys are simply promoting heresy.
It takes the Gospel to expose you; by opposing the Gospel your heretical teachings are made manifest.
Yours is the unbiblical notion that Gehenna doesn't exist, and Raj's is the unbiblical notion that his works (read: best intentions) can save him.
...you have made the grievous error that most Christians and the churches they represent perpetuate in that you have doggedly refused to humbly admit that you could be wrong and have persisted in the traditions handed down to you...
Classic heretic speak: "most Christians are in error... most traditions are in error," etc.
In order to justify your backwards theology, you need to paint the majority of Christendom as in error.
...traditions which none other than the Christ himself states have superseded or negated the word of god...
Christ was speaking to the Pharisees (Mark 7:8), and was not referencing the Christian traditions of today - certainly not the Gospel handed down through the apostles.
...we on the other hand have whenever possible to tried remained entirely objective and open minded...
On the contrary, you have exhibited the unmistakable rigidity of thought which accompanies those self-condemned individuals who have forsaken the Orthodox and imagine they have hit upon something further beyond the truth.
...ALWAYS having references for the assertions that we make...
Not always; you failed just now to have a reference for your assertion that Christ declared the Orthodox Gospel of today to have superseded scripture.
...i hope you will keep this in mind when hurling your spiritual mortars in the direction of sincere students of Gods Word.
You are not a student of God's Word. You claim to be a teacher of God's Word. On more than one occasion you claimed that you would enlighten us as to why Hell is not a real place. Any sincere student of God's Word could tell you that, according to scripture, Hell is indeed a real place.
If you're not telling the truth, RC, then what are you doing?
Naamns problem was that initially he lacked humility and was unwilling to accept humble direction and guidance, and until he did so, he remained in his present state, so to in a spiritual sense, until we are able to humbly accept correction and until such times as we are unwilling to change our thinking to comply more fully with the revealed Word of God because of our dogged persistence to traditions of men, then what can we expect, other than stagnation and error.
Again with the heretic speak (arch-enemy: tradition).
It's laughable to think I would ever accept guidance from someone like yourself who promotes heretical doctrine. You can't fool me, RC.
__________
RC, I beseech you: forsake your heretical teachings before it's too late.
08 Nov 08
Originally posted by Rajk999"WORKS PROFIT NOTHING' is total heresy and completely contrary to everything Christ taught.
Youre attempting to share a gospel fabricated by heretical Christians in the last few hundred years. The gospel you are now preaching was not taught by Paul or Christ.
The idea that any one OF ANY RELIGION could utter the words "WORKS PROFIT NOTHING' is total heresy and completely contrary to everything Christ taught. People like you have created a breed ...[text shortened]... t agree with the teachings of man. The true heretic is one who denies the teachings of Christ.
Christ taught that all those who believe in Him already have eternal life and will not be condemned (John 5:24).
Are there any works which you can think of that are able to produce faith? If so, name one.
The fact is, works cannot produce the faith which is necessary to be saved.
Thus, "works profit nothing."
You call me a heretic becuase I do not agree with the teachings of man. The true heretic is one who denies the teachings of Christ.
I've never denied Christ teaches that His followers must live pious lives. (BTW, most of the Christians I know do lead pious lives.)
But you continually deny Christ's teaching that all those who believe in Him have eternal life. Even going so far as claiming that the word "believeth" is supposed to be translated as "obey", which is a complete fabrication.
08 Nov 08
2 edits
Originally posted by robbie carrobieLock and load. Incoming!!
ok, before we start lobbing around spiritual mortars in the shape of calling others heretic, perhaps one can explain the original Greek word used in the book of revelation and translated as torment. there that is a start and some homework for being bad, anymore and we shall be forced to give you detention in the form of additional exercises!
The greek word for torture is from the greek verb basanizo which can mean torture but not necessarily so. I know where you are going with this because I have debated with those who believe as you do which is that there is no eternal torture.
Having said that, one is still confronted with torture, if not in the temperal world. Never mind the eternal wold, how can one come to grips with torture in the temperal world using your theology? There is no explaining it away because it is very obvious that it exists. How can a loving God allow it to occur even in temperal form? In addition, if it exists in temperal form, why not in eternal form?
08 Nov 08
Originally posted by knightmeisterDon't you really understand that your "God" is different than Allah and Krishna and Brachmin etc, but that still a Hindu or a Muslim can claim exactly what you claim although he is not a "truly born by God" Christian whilst still he is a human of righteousness according to his religion? Which logical and philosophical means can you use in order to prove that the Christian "God" is more valid and valuable as a "God" than Krishna, Allah, Vishnu, Brahmin etc? Who gave you the right to claim that your denomination is the sole Christian one that its interpretation is 100% valid, as we all know that each Christian denomination has different values? Or you believe that your "God" is the same for any "believer"?
My beliefs are only discriminative to the extent to which you misunderstand them and mis represent them. My belief on this actually opens the door to the idea that we are all part of God's plan in some way and all engaged in working with him to bring about a better world.
It's actually inclusive if you think about it. I do not go down the line of ...[text shortened]... ismissing some good that people have done because it doesn't have a Christian label on it.
Don't you really see that your interpretation is clearly disctiminative? For, if I were Muslim or Hindu, I would claim exactly the same with the difference that Krishna is not Jesus and therefore I can consider allright myself as an existence of pure righteousness?
Don't you really see that your theology is discriminative?
08 Nov 08
Originally posted by epiphinehashaha, it is not the apostles who have erred, although they did make some make quite mysterious mistakes, what marks the difference between them and you was their willingness to stand corrected.
[b]no, this thread was begun with the sole intention of spreading YOUR version, YOUR interpretation, the basis of which was set in the seeds of YOUR indoctrination and YOUR erroneous dogma...
The Gospel I share is the same Gospel which the apostles preached.
Please enlighten me to where the apostles have erred.
...myself and Raj as well a ...[text shortened]... ______
RC, I beseech you: forsake your heretical teachings before it's too late.
correction number 1, no one has stated that Gehenna does not exist, what we have stated is that it is not a place of literal torment, eternal, temporal or otherwise, but the common grave of mankind, which is a sleep like state with no consciousness, with references we have provided the basis for this.
correction number 2, we are not heretical, but rather opened minded and have cultivated enough humility to let the scriptures be our guide, not some man originated, God dishonoring doctrine.
correction number 3, given that the majority of those involved in the last two worlds wars have been professed Christians, killing other so called Christians, i think we have enough evidence and every right to call into question the integrity of Churches and their adherents, who after all, have the blood of millions on their hands, because they denied the teachings of Christ.
correction number 4, whether Christ was addressing the pharisees is neither here nor there , for your traditions have not been handed down through the apostles but have come as a direct descendant of Babylonia, Hell as a place of torment, Easter named after the Babylonian fertility goddess Astarte, the immortality of the 'soul' essentially a pagan Greek idea borrowed from the Babylonians, so please enough of your references to the apostles, your doctrines bear no resemblance in word nor deed as was practiced by the early Christians, to Christ it would be unrecognizable.
correction number 5, we have not once gone beyond what has been written, not once, but in every statement there has been a scriptural basis and reference for our thoughts. as to the reference to traditions, see above.
too late, too late for what? i will have no fear when standing before the judgment seat of Christ, infact i will embrace it, free in the knowledge that God is a God of mercy, in fact he delights in acts of mercy, is slow to anger and abundant in loving kindness, would never torture someone eternally for having made mistakes when in an imperfect condition, on the contrary, it is not i who needs to fear but those who have painted him as a torturer and vindictive god, when nothing could be further from the truth.
08 Nov 08
Originally posted by robbie carrobie"...nothing could be further from the truth."
haha, it is not the apostles who have erred, although they did make some make quite mysterious mistakes, what marks the difference between them and you was their willingness to stand corrected.
correction number 1, no one has stated that Gehenna does not exist, what we have stated is that it is not a place of literal torment, eternal, temporal or ...[text shortened]... ve painted him as a torturer and vindictive god, when nothing could be further from the truth.
Just what is the truth, and what is the sourse of the truth?
Yes, God is a loving, kind, and merciful God. But according to the Bible He is also a God of justice. The Bible clearly states that God will judge the living and the dead and will meet out justice to all those who died in their sin and rejected His provision for salvation.
Jesus is the truth, the way, and the life. Without Jesus one is destined to eternal seperation from God. That is what the Bible teaches. Anyone who says otherwise is a fool and believes a lie.
08 Nov 08
Originally posted by whodeyaha, how interesting Mr. Bond, so the word translated ,to torture, comes from the Greek word basanizo, now let us elucidate as to the possible connotations which of necessity arise from this rather interesting revelation, hence forth let us assert that this Greek word basanizo (and related terms) occurs over 20 times in the Christian Greek Scriptures.
Lock and load. Incoming!!
The greek word for torture is from the greek verb basanizo which can mean torture but not necessarily so. I know where you are going with this because I have debated with those who believe as you do which is that there is no eternal torture.
Having said that, one is still confronted with torture, if not in the temperal worl ...[text shortened]... cur even in temperal form? In addition, if it exists in temperal form, why not in eternal form?
It basically meant “test by the proving stone (basanos) and therefore by extension, 'examine or question by applying torture' lexicographers point out that in the greek scriptures it is used with the sense of ‘vexing with grievous pains, being harassed, distressed etc etc’ Matthew 8:29, Luke 8:28, Revelation 12:2 etc etc.
The bible writers used basanizo in a number of instances. For example, a manservant afflicted with paralysis was “terribly tormented” or “racked with pain” by it. (Matthew 8:6 also compare 4:24.) Also, Lot 'used to torment his soul', or 'was vexed' by the lawless deeds of the people of Sodom. (2 Peter 2:8) funnily if you have a sense of humour that is, the word is even used in regard to the difficult progress of a boat, Matthew 14:24
The Greek noun basanistes occurring at Matthew 18:34 is rendered 'jailers' in some translations and 'tormentors' or 'torturers' in others as torture was sometimes used in prisons to obtain information (compare Ac 22:24 and 29), which shows that this was done, although basanizo is not used here, so this word basanistes came to be applied to jailers.
Regarding its use at Matthew 18:34, The International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia observed: “Probably the imprisonment itself was regarded as ‘torment’ (as it doubtless was), and the ‘tormentors’ need mean nothing more than jailers.” (edited by J. Orr, 1960, Vol. 5) Thus, the mentioning in Revelation 20:10 of ones who will be “tormented day and night forever and ever” evidently indicates that they will be in a condition of restraint. That a condition of restraint can be spoken of as “torment” is indicated by the parallel accounts at Matthew 8:29 and Luke 8:31
Some commentators and unscrupulous individuals have pointed to biblical instances of the word 'torment' to support the teaching of eternal suffering (torment) in fire. However, as we have just indicated, there is scriptural reason to believe that Revelation 20:10 does not have that sense. In fact, verse 14 shows that 'the lake of fire' in which the torment occurs, actually means 'the second death', no more prospect for life but a complete annihilation from before the face of god, so if one is annihilated he cannot face torture, can he?
there that wasn't so painful was it?
08 Nov 08
2 edits
Originally posted by josephwdidn't Pontius Pilate ask the Christ the same thing, 'what is truth', are you sure you are on the right side. we are all sinners, no doubt, infact we were born sinful, and yes i expect God to exercise justice and demand retribution for those who have been innocently killed, especially those millions in the two world wars, perpetrated by so called Christians, just what was your Church and its members doing during those two world wars?
[b]"...nothing could be further from the truth."
Just what is the truth, and what is the sourse of the truth?
Yes, God is a loving, kind, and merciful God. But according to the Bible He is also a God of justice. The Bible clearly states that God will judge the living and the dead and will meet out justice to all those who died in their sin and reje ...[text shortened]... m God. That is what the Bible teaches. Anyone who says otherwise is a fool and believes a lie.[/b]
08 Nov 08
Originally posted by robbie carrobieBut you fail to note that Pontius Pilate didn't wait for an answer from Jesus.
didn't Pontius Pilate ask the Christ the same thing, 'what is truth', are you sure you are on the right side. we are all sinners, no doubt, infact we were born sinful, and yes i expect God to exercise justice and demand retribution for those who have been innocently killed, especially those millions in the two world wars, perpetrated by so called Christians, just what was your Church and its members doing during those two world wars?
If you believe that Christians are responsible for world wars, then you are a fool, and no amount of reasoning with you will suffice to change your mind.
And what's more, your perception of reality, attested by your belief that Christians are perpetrators in the deaths of the innocent, is evidence of a faulty world view.
Besides that, you went off on a tangent. You failed to reply to the central theme of my post. I suggest you go back and read it again. Then, maybe we can have a purposeful dialog about that which was originally stated by me to you.