11 Jan 20
2 edits
@galveston75 saidAsk them why their version is different than the one I believe in, what I have been telling you is not unique to me. Go back to the link I gave you, and you'll see the same things said, and I believe you'll see Nabeel Qureshi speaks to this clearer than I have been. He converted to Christianity from being a Muslim his whole life, he was born into a family of Muslim missionaries. His journey he hit these questions very hard. He has since died, but you can watch his testimony, I can provide the link to it or do a Youtube search, "Seeking Allah finding Jesus Nabeel Qureshi."
https://lhim.org/gladtidings/articles/The_Trinity_Defined_and_Refuted_(2)_--_Co-equal_issue_74.pdf
This as well as many sites say they are equal in all things. Why is your version different?
I’m not big on denominations, organizations, or following specific people least idolatry becomes an issue for me. I am a member of a denomination, but it isn’t what makes me a Christian, Christ does that. With Him, it’s a living faith that I share with all of those that know the Lord, as Lord and Savior.
11 Jan 20
@KellyJay
The point is Kelly there are different versions even within the same denominations. As I said I have many relatives and even within the same family they are different. That raises a red flag even if you don't agree. If the trinity is true there should be no versions.
I'll be waiting on your thoughts on my other questions...
11 Jan 20
@galveston75 saidI agree that truth is truth, and it will not contradict itself. Are you willing to say because there are different versions that millions upon millions of people have about God, that is proof God is not real in every and all versions?
@KellyJay
The point is Kelly there are different versions even within the same denominations. As I said I have many relatives and even within the same family they are different. That raises a red flag even if you don't agree. If the trinity is true there should be no versions.
I'll be waiting on your thoughts on my other questions...
I am not asking you to believe what I believe because of me or any other! I, without a doubt, am asking you to make the case with Scripture. To appeal to other sources like personal opinions makes doctrine a matter of popularity and personal opinion, not the Word of God.
If our beliefs contradict any Scripture, they need to be scrutinized. I don't see any text I have to ignore, dismiss, or alter the words to mean something other than what it says in the translations or original text.
11 Jan 20
@galveston75 saidWhat about it?
@KellyJay
Yes when it comes to the trinity.
So no comment on Jesus's baptism?
11 Jan 20
@galveston75 saidIf you read the book of Hebrews, you will see a few things for one in the OT and NT; it speaks of the Son as being God directly without a doubt; this is about Jesus Christ. We know this by the opening portion of the book of Hebrews, where it is said, "After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high..." It is clear Jesus is to receive worship even from the angels, this is not something God shares with anyone, throughout scripture we see that God is a jealous God He does not put up with other gods at all. The Son and the Father are One, and The Father isn't sharing this with another different god, you have the Son you have the Father!
Got another question... The Bible clearly says that "God cannot die as he is from eternity to eternity." Does this apply to Jesus? If it does what happened when he was put to death? Was the trinity now just a 2 part (Jehovah and the holy spirit) or did the trinity being continue within their beings while Jesus was dead?
Psalm 45 (ESV)
Your throne, O God, is forever and ever.
The scepter of your kingdom is a scepter of uprightness;
you have loved righteousness and hated wickedness.
Therefore God, your God, has anointed you
with the oil of gladness beyond your companions;
your robes are all fragrant with myrrh and aloes and cassia.
From ivory palaces stringed instruments make you glad;
Hebrews 1
And again, when he brings the firstborn into the world, he says,
“Let all God's angels worship him.”
Of the angels he says,
“He makes his angels winds,
and his ministers a flame of fire.”
But of the Son he says,
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever,
the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom.
You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has anointed you
with the oil of gladness beyond your companions.”
Hebrews 1 (ESV)
Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, having become as much superior to angels as the name he has inherited is more excellent than theirs.
John 14:9
Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?
Jesus became the Son of man, He emptied Himself to do it, and as a man, He did things as one of us. Taking on humanity, He went through life as we do, yet without sin so He knows what it is we are going through.
Hebrews 5:7-9 English Standard Version (ESV)
In the days of his flesh, Jesus offered up prayers and supplications, with loud cries and tears, to him who was able to save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverence. Although he was a son, he learned obedience through what he suffered. And being made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him,
One of the more encouraging scriptures in Hebrews for me is in Hebrews 12, where we see that even Jesus as a man looked forward to the things to come, for the joy set before Him, just as we do know this life isn't it. He completely understands our plight and by divine sovereign grace, He saved us!
Hebrews 12 English Standard Version (ESV)
Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.
11 Jan 20
@kellyjay saidOK lets look at this scripture you quoted and break it down. This actually applies to everyone you posted but look at this one for now that you are saying shows that the two of them are the same.
Hebrews 1 (ESV)
Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After ...[text shortened]... having become as much superior to angels as the name he has inherited is more excellent than theirs.
First of all it does not on any level help your cause.
The first point it makes is that Jehovah spoke to humans by way of the prophets but that later on he would speak thru his son Jesus.
What is this saying? Could Jesus not speak to humans before this changed? Why did he not speak from day one after humans were on earth but then at a latter time begin speaking to us? Maybe he wasn't qualified or did he later earn that position? If he were indeed one part of God Almighty and was equal to the Father part, why could he not speak to us but then later on could?
Why was he never called a mediator in the time before he came to earth but then was called that later?
Man had always directly prayed to Jehovah before Jesus came to earth but once Jesus was here he showed them how to pray thru him, Jesus, to be heard by Jehovah. If Jesus is equal then why did all this change?
The finale part of that scripture shows another change of Jesus that his Father implemented. Not Jesus implementing this but what his father Jehovah gave to him because of his loyalty to his father.
It says what? He NOW became "much superior then the angels". What? He became more superior? What? So before then he wasn't much more powerful then the angels he helped to create.
Let me say that again..he BECAME much superior to the angels which means very clearly that before that happened, he wasn't much higher then they were.
Now how can that be if he, Jesus, is equal to and is in fact God himself??
Now you quoted and used that scripture to some how prove what? Maybe you may not want to use that one again because it just shot down the trinity completely.
11 Jan 20
@galveston75 saidJesus commanded the apostles:
OK lets look at this scripture you quoted and break it down. This actually applies to everyone you posted but look at this one for now that you are saying shows that the two of them are the same.
First of all it does not on any level help your cause.
The first point it makes is that Jehovah spoke to humans by way of the prophets but that later on he would speak thru ...[text shortened]... what? Maybe you may not want to use that one again because it just shot down the trinity completely.
"go and baptise in the name of the Father and of the son and of the holy spirit."
There is not one instance in the entire NT where the disciples baptised using the trinitarian formula - which incidentally is entirely relevant.
The disciples baptised using the name of Jesus every single time without fail - thus: I baptise you in the name of Jesus Christ
and never: I baptise you in the name of the Father and of the son and of the holy spirit
So what is the one single name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy ghost? it is Jesus. Jesus is the name of the Father and the holy spirit - it's right there in Acts!
Irrespective of doves, prayers, calling out, they are the same single person, the same single entity. Not three. Three is pagan and totally unscriptural. The disciples new this.
11 Jan 20
@galveston75 saidI am saying that they are the same in that they are God the One God, and always have been throughout eternity. As the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, they have been working towards the same end. The Father sent the Son, the Son, won our Salvation, and the Holy Spirit has been sent to teach us and leads us. They each play their roles in the Godhead in total, harmony with perfect unity. Duet 6.4
OK lets look at this scripture you quoted and break it down. This actually applies to everyone you posted but look at this one for now that you are saying shows that the two of them are the same.
First of all it does not on any level help your cause.
The first point it makes is that Jehovah spoke to humans by way of the prophets but that later on he would speak thru ...[text shortened]... what? Maybe you may not want to use that one again because it just shot down the trinity completely.
Jesus became a man, as He did as a man, He added human nature to His being so that we can now say there is a man at the right hand of God interceding and will be forever. This keeping promises to Abraham and King David about the eternal Kingdom coming from their lineage.
Jesus was slain for us before the foundation of the world.
11 Jan 20
1 edit
@KellyJay You know Kelly you really didn't answer anything about those two issues in my post. I know you are trying to explain your points when answering but they don't answer my questions at all.
And are you saying there is a part of a fleshly man in Jesus?
11 Jan 20
@galveston75 saidJesus became a man, you struggle with that?
@KellyJay You know Kelly you really didn't answer anything about those two issues in my post. I know you are trying to explain your points when answering but they don't answer my questions at all.
And are you saying there is a part of a fleshly man in Jesus?
11 Jan 20
1 edit
@galveston75 said"Why was he never called a mediator in the time before he came to earth but then was called that later?
OK lets look at this scripture you quoted and break it down. This actually applies to everyone you posted but look at this one for now that you are saying shows that the two of them are the same.
First of all it does not on any level help your cause.
The first point it makes is that Jehovah spoke to humans by way of the prophets but that later on he would speak thru ...[text shortened]... what? Maybe you may not want to use that one again because it just shot down the trinity completely.
Man had always directly prayed to Jehovah before Jesus came to earth but once Jesus was here he showed them how to pray thru him, Jesus, to be heard by Jehovah. If Jesus is equal then why did all this change? "
The eternal Son became a man entering into His creation and became our mediator before He came into this world as one of us, He was still who He was with the Father and Holy Spirit, but not us. If you think God created Jesus to be that, that would be like God saying, "I want to save you so I’m going to kill this child over here to do that!" God did not create a child to crucify for us, that is not what happened, God became a man and He was crucified for us taking our guilt upon Himself for us, the Father punishing the Son for the creation's sins before God. He bore our sins, and it was foretold that Jesus was going to make intercession for our transgressions, which is being a mediator for us.
2 Corinthians 5 (ESV)
All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.
Isaiah 53 (ESV)
Yet it was the will of the LORD to crush him; he has put him to grief; when his soul makes an offering for guilt, he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days; the will of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see and be satisfied; by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant, make many to be accounted righteous, and he shall bear their iniquities. Therefore I will divide him a portion with the many, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong, because he poured out his soul to death and was numbered with the transgressors; yet he bore the sin of many, and makes intercession for the transgressors.
11 Jan 20
@KellyJay
I don't struggle with it at all. He became a human being when he was conceived. When he died he was no longer a human being. "Flesh and blood cannot enter into heaven".
He did not have to keep anything fleshly, why would he? Did he need it? If he did need it how did he survive for the eons of time after he was created as a spirit?
11 Jan 20
@galveston75 saidJesus commanded the apostles:
@KellyJay
I don't struggle with it at all. He became a human being when he was conceived. When he died he was no longer a human being. "Flesh and blood cannot enter into heaven".
He did not have to keep anything fleshly, why would he? Did he need it? If he did need it how did he survive for the eons of time after he was created as a spirit?
"go and baptise in the name of the Father and of the son and of the holy spirit."
There is not one instance in the entire NT where the disciples baptised using the trinitarian formula - which incidentally is entirely relevant.
The disciples baptised using the name of Jesus every single time without fail - thus: I baptise you in the name of Jesus Christ
and never: I baptise you in the name of the Father and of the son and of the holy spirit
So what is the one single name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy ghost? it is Jesus. Jesus is the name of the Father and the holy spirit - it's right there in Acts!
Irrespective of doves, prayers, calling out, they are the same single person, the same single entity. Not three. Three is pagan and totally unscriptural. The disciples new this.
11 Jan 20
@KellyJay
"The eternal Son became a man entering into His creation and became our mediator before He came into this world as one of us,"
Can you show me by scripture where he was called a mediator before he came to earth? I know you can't because that is what the prophets were for as well as the High Priest who offered sacrifices for our sins on a very regular basis. Jesus was not involved in this at all before he came to earth. But again show me proof of what you say....
"He was still who He was with the Father and Holy Spirit, but not us. If you think God created Jesus to be that, that would be like God saying, "I want to save you so I’m going to kill this child over here to do that!" God did not create a child to crucify for us, that is not what happened, God became a man and He was crucified for us taking our guilt upon Himself for us, the Father punishing the Son for the creation's sins before God. He bore our sins, and it was foretold that Jesus was going to make intercession for our transgressions, which is being a mediator for us. "
Yes it was foretold he would do those things, but only after he became human. Nothing before was done by Jesus in regards to becoming a mediator between us and his Father Jehovah until after he came to earth.
And no Jehovah did not create Jesus eons ago to simply become a sacrifice for humans. Jesus was created long before the earth and any humans on it were in existence and long before Adam sinned. Why would you think I believe other wise?