11 Jan 20
The finale part of that scripture shows another change of Jesus that his Father implemented. Not Jesus implementing this but what his father Jehovah gave to him because of his loyalty to his father.
It says what? He NOW became "much superior then the angels". What? He became more superior? What? So before then he wasn't much more powerful then the angels he helped to create.
Let me say that again..he BECAME much superior to the angels which means very clearly that before that happened, he wasn't much higher then they were.
Now how can that be if he, Jesus, is equal to and is in fact God himself??
Just thought I'd post this again so you can comment on it....
11 Jan 20
@galveston75 saidHe became a man that did not change after He died and rose from the dead.
@KellyJay
I don't struggle with it at all. He became a human being when he was conceived. When he died he was no longer a human being. "Flesh and blood cannot enter into heaven".
He did not have to keep anything fleshly, why would he? Did he need it? If he did need it how did he survive for the eons of time after he was created as a spirit?
He was not created a spirit out of nothing when there was a time He was not, He was not created at all, and there was never a time He wasn't God; the only change came when He took on humanity, it was then He became a life-giving Spirit for us by becoming one of us the last Adam, fulfilling several promises made by God. There was never a time He, the Father and Holy Spirit were apart until He became sin. So God is our salvation, our savior, the only One that could have redeemed us did, and not because we were worth it, but because of who God is, He first loved us.
1 Corinthians 15 (ESV)
So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable. It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power. It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. Thus it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit. But it is not the spiritual that is first but the natural, and then the spiritual. The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven. As was the man of dust, so also are those who are of the dust, and as is the man of heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven.
11 Jan 20
@kellyjay saidThis is in the Bible and it's your quote not mine. It says here what it says and it's very clear and consistent with the rest of the Bible on who Jesus is.
He became a man that did not change after He died and rose from the dead.
He was not created a spirit out of nothing when there was a time He was not, He was not created at all, and there was never a time He wasn't God; the only change came when He took on humanity, it was then He became a life-giving Spirit for us by becoming one of us the last Adam, fulfilling several p ...[text shortened]... st as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven.
Hebrews 1 (ESV)
"Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, ((((( having become as much superior to angels))))))) as the name he has inherited is more excellent than theirs. "
I would really like you to explain this and why it does not support the trinity doctrine as it says by each letter there that he now became greater then the angels, which that would clearly mean that at sometime before that he wasn't.
Did you add this scripture to your comment without reading it?
Also this is said at 1 Cor 15: 50 "But I tell you this, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s Kingdom, nor does corruption inherit incorruption."
It says in clear plain English that flesh and blood can not go to heaven to live with spirit beings? Is this scripture wrong? Should it be removed from the bible? It doesn't fit your saying that it does. Perhaps you don't understand what this scripture is saying?
If Jesus were flesh and blood in heaven or out in space somewhere, the flesh would die instantly in the vacuum of space. Right?
11 Jan 20
@KellyJay
Did you not read this in your scripture you posted? What is this saying?
"So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable. (Human flesh is perishable ) It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power. It is sown a natural body; (it is raised a spiritual body) . If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body."
Again your using scriptures that go against what you are saying.
11 Jan 20
@galveston75 saidThe first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven.
@KellyJay
Did you not read this in your scripture you posted? What is this saying?
"So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable. (Human flesh is perishable ) It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power. It is sown a natural b ...[text shortened]... there is also a spiritual body."
Again your using scriptures that go against what you are saying.
11 Jan 20
@KellyJay
Yes Adam was from the earth, Jesus is from heaven where no flesh and blood can enter.
Now what about the other post about Jesus compared to the angels before he came to earth and then once he went back up to heaven?
12 Jan 20
@galveston75 saidI'm not following your questions or points at all! Jesus was with the Father as the Son of God, and He became a man. The Word of God became a man entering into human existence through the line of David as promised, in the bloodline of Abraham as promised, to crush the serpents head as promised to Adam and Eve.
@KellyJay
Yes Adam was from the earth, Jesus is from heaven where no flesh and blood can enter.
Now what about the other post about Jesus compared to the angels before he came to earth and then once he went back up to heaven?
What in this are you questioning? There is no comparison with Jesus and the angels, they are created beings, He is God and was not created.
12 Jan 20
@KellyJay
It seems you are saying that some part of the man the fleshly part of him that Jesus was on earth survived somehow and went to heaven. I may be wrong but that's what I'm questioning.
Kelly how can you deny the scripture that clearly says that Jesus was the first born of all creation? I know it screws up the trinity but you can't ignore or even deny that the scripture is there and point blank explains Jesus's origin.
You still have not responded to the point of Jesus and the angels I've asked you about now for about the 3rd time??
12 Jan 20
@galveston75 saidJesus commanded the apostles:
@KellyJay
Kelly how can you deny the scripture that clearly says that Jesus was the first born of all creation?
"go and baptise in the name of the Father and of the son and of the holy spirit."
There is not one instance in the entire NT where the disciples baptised using the trinitarian formula - which incidentally is entirely relevant.
The disciples baptised using the name of Jesus every single time without fail - thus: I baptise you in the name of Jesus Christ
and never: I baptise you in the name of the Father and of the son and of the holy spirit
So what is the one single name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy ghost? it is Jesus. Jesus is the name of the Father and the holy spirit - it's right there in Acts!
Irrespective of doves, prayers, calling out, they are the same single person, the same single entity. Not three. Three is pagan and totally unscriptural. The disciples new this.
12 Jan 20
@kellyjay saidHere you go...
I'm not following your questions or points at all! Jesus was with the Father as the Son of God, and He became a man.
Jesus commanded the apostles:
"go and baptise in the name of the Father and of the son and of the holy spirit."
There is not one instance in the entire NT where the disciples baptised using the trinitarian formula - which incidentally is entirely relevant.
The disciples baptised using the name of Jesus every single time without fail - thus: I baptise you in the name of Jesus Christ
and never: I baptise you in the name of the Father and of the son and of the holy spirit
So what is the one single name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy ghost? it is Jesus. Jesus is the name of the Father and the holy spirit - it's right there in Acts!
Irrespective of doves, prayers, calling out, they are the same single person, the same single entity. Not three. Three is pagan and totally unscriptural. The disciples new this.
12 Jan 20
@galveston75 saidJesus was the firstborn, we are all to be born again who know the Lord, and He was the first of those born of man to be totally and completely be acceptable to God without sins. He became a man so that He could share in our humanity as the Son of man, and save us because we could do it ourselves, this is why the scriptures tell us we must be born again, we must have Jesus in our lives, we must have the Holy Spirit within us! If not, then the fleshly is where we are living. If we are without God in us, we can only follow our carnal hearts and all of those who are doing that cannot please God; it is impossible.
@KellyJay
It seems you are saying that some part of the man the fleshly part of him that Jesus was on earth survived somehow and went to heaven. I may be wrong but that's what I'm questioning.
Kelly how can you deny the scripture that clearly says that Jesus was the first born of all creation? I know it screws up the trinity but you can't ignore or even deny that t ...[text shortened]... not responded to the point of Jesus and the angels I've asked you about now for about the 3rd time??
Romans 8:8
Those who are in the flesh cannot please God
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12 Jan 20
@divegeester saidNot even sure why this is being debated. Paul was pretty clear in 1 Corinthians 8:5-6:
Here you go...
Jesus commanded the apostles:
"go and baptise in the name of the Father and of the son and of the holy spirit."
There is not one instance in the entire NT where the disciples baptised using the trinitarian formula - which incidentally is entirely relevant.
The disciples baptised using the name of Jesus every single time without fail - thus: I b ...[text shortened]... the same single entity. Not three. Three is pagan and totally unscriptural. The disciples new this.
“For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many gods and many lords), yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.”
12 Jan 20
@ghost-of-a-duke saidYes, and that does not go against the Trinity.
Not even sure why this is being debated. Paul was pretty clear in 1 Corinthians 8:5-6:
“For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many gods and many lords), yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.”
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12 Jan 20
3 edits
I would really like you to explain this and why it does not support the trinity doctrine as it says by each letter there that he now became greater then the angels, which that would clearly mean that at sometime before that he wasn't.
Did you add this scripture to your comment without reading it?
Also this is said at 1 Cor 15: 50 "But I tell you this, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s Kingdom, nor does corruption inherit incorruption."
It says in clear plain English that flesh and blood can not go to heaven to live with spirit beings? Is this scripture wrong? Should it be removed from the bible? It doesn't fit your saying that it does. Perhaps you don't understand what this scripture is saying?
If Jesus were flesh and blood in heaven or out in space somewhere, the flesh would die instantly in the vacuum of space. Right?
Christ first had to become incarnated as a man in order to die and shed His blood for eternal redemption.
Man was created a little lower then the angels according to the same book of Hebrews and Psalm 8.
But one has solemnly testified somewhere, saying, What is man, that You bring him to mind? Or the son of man, that You care for him!
YOU HAVE MADE HIM A LITTLE INFERIOR TO THE ANGELS ..." (1:2:6-7a)
God created human beings "a little inferior to the angels" .
The Word who was God became flesh, God incarnated as a man.
He was God and clothed Himself in creation - becoming a typical man (yet sinless / perfect). And according to Psalm 8 MAN is created a little inferior to the angels.
Verse 9 could be no clearer. This includes Jesus before His resurrection and exaltation and ascension -
"But we see Jesus, who was made a little inferior to the angels ..."
However, after His death, resurrection, glorification, asncension, and transfiguration the One made a little inferior to the angels is now crowned with glory and honor.
"But we see Jesus, who was made a little inferior to the angels BECAUSE OF THE SUFFERING OF DEATH ... CROWNED ... with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death on behalf of everything." (v.10)
Therein is the answer to your question. He put AWAY that splendid glory of being in the form of God and became a man, an obedient man, suffering death, even that of a cross, and being highly exalted by God He is now crowned with glory and honor.
So verse 4 said -
"Having become as much better than the angels as to have inherited a more distinguished name than they. " (v. 4)
The very next verse, verse 5, about the begetting of the Firstborn Son is not about His being incarnated as in birth from Mary. It is about His being the Firstborn in RESURRECTION.
As for First Cor. 15:50 I will only comment at this time that you are READING "inherit the kingdom of God" but you are inserting with your imagination "go to Heaven". That is all I will point out at the moment.
Read the first part of this post twice carefully.