Originally posted by serigadoIf God really cared about where we end up after we die, he would give us proof of His existence.
It this sentence better?
God is God, so it's normal we can't comprehend his reasoning, although we can try do to it?
[b]NO, and I didn't say that too, In Islam we don't do that, and I will never answer you this answer, and I never did, review my posts here if you like to see if I didn't that before. Islamic faith is very clear, and it is all based on re ...[text shortened]... od? What do you think a God would prefer? A submitting sheep or a questioning one?
Without proof for us, He doesn't care, He's not there or He's powerless to give proof.
I definitely think that any good god would prefer followers that think for themselves instead of blindly following what's in a book.
Originally posted by TheMaster37Allah did talk to you through his prophets, and the last one of them named Mohammed, who carried his message to you, telling you what he wants from you, and what will happen to you after your death. He supported him (and all other prophets) with evidences that support their claim of being messangers of GOD. We Muslims thought about the prophets and their message, and we accepted them, and so we knew that theere is GOD his name is Allah, and he wants us to worship him and to populate earth. So we did.
If God really cared about where we end up after we die, he would give us proof of His existence.
Without proof for us, He doesn't care, He's not there or He's powerless to give proof.
I definitely think that any good god would prefer followers that think for themselves instead of blindly following what's in a book.
You on the other hand close your mind and still think that the way GOD talked to you is not the most sutible one for your so perfected mind , and he should talk to you by the way you think is the best (I don't know which method you like and no atheist knows) and refuse to even think about the possibility.
GOD gave you the proof long time ago but you still don't want to believe.
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Originally posted by serigado[/b]Do you ever question it?
It this sentence better?
God is God, so it's normal we can't comprehend his reasoning, although we can try do to it?
[b]NO, and I didn't say that too, In Islam we don't do that, and I will never answer you this answer, and I never did, review my posts here if you like to see if I didn't that before. Islamic faith is very clear, and it is all based on re od? What do you think a God would prefer? A submitting sheep or a questioning one?
Of course, all the time, because Quran ask me to do so, Allah , my god who I believe me ask me to think and look aroung me every where so that I make sure of my believes, and every time I do so I became more and more trusting of my faith.
What do you think a God would prefer? A submitting sheep or a questioning one?
Look at what Quran say:
(Nobel-Translation)(Ar-Rum)(o 8 o)(8. Do they not think deeply -in their ownselves- about themselves -how Allâh created them from nothing, and similarly He will resurrect them-? Allâh has created not the heavens and the earth, and all that is between them, except with truth and for an appointed term. And indeed many of mankind deny the Meeting with their Lord. -See Tafsir AtTabarî, Part 21, Page 24-. )
(Nobel-Translation)(Fatir)(o 28 o)(28. And of men and AdDawâb -moving living creatures, beasts, etc.-, and cattle, in like manner of various colours. It is only those who have knowledge among His slaves that fear Allâh. Verily, Allâh is AllMighty, OftForgiving. )
(Nobel-Translation)(Al-'Ankabut)(o 20 o)(20. Say: "Travel in the land and see how -Allâh- originated creation, and then Allâh will bring forth -resurrect- the creation of the Hereafter -i.e. resurrection after death-. Verily, Allâh is Able to do all things." )
(Nobel-Translation)(Al-Jathiya)(o 13 o)(13. And has subjected to you all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth; it is all as a favour and kindness from Him. Verily, in it are signs for a people who think deeply. )
(Nobel-Translation)(Ar-Rum)(o 21 o)(21. And among His Signs is this, that He created for you wives from among yourselves, that you may find repose in them, and He has put between you affection and mercy. Verily, in that are indeed signs for a people who think deeply. )
(Nobel-Translation)(An-Nahl)(o 69 o)(69. "Then, eat of all fruits, and follow the ways of your Lord made easy -for you-." There comes forth from their bellies, a drink of varying colour wherein is healing for men. Verily, in this is indeed a sign for people who think. )
(Nobel-Translation)(Ar-Ra'd)(o 3 o)(3. And it is He Who spread out the earth, and placed therein firm mountains and rivers and of every kind of fruits He made Zawjain Ithnaîn -two in pairs - may mean two kinds or it may mean: of two sorts, e.g. black and white, sweet and sour, small and big, etc.- He brings the night as a cover over the day. Verily, in these things, there are Ayât -proofs, evidences, lessons, signs, etc.- for people who think deeply. )
(Nobel-Translation)(Al-Hajj)(o 5 o)(5. O mankind! If you are in doubt about the Resurrection, then verily! We have created you -i.e. Adam- from dust, then from a Nutfah -mixed drops of male and female sexual discharge i.e. offspring of Adam-, then from a clot -a piece of thick coagulated blood- then from a little lump of flesh, some formed and some unformed -miscarriage-, that We may make -it- clear to you -i.e. to show you Our Power and Ability to do what We will-. And We cause whom We will to remain in the wombs for an appointed term, then We bring you out as infants, then -give you growth- that you may reach your age of full strength. And among you there is he who dies -young-, and among you there is he who is brought back to the miserable old age, so that he knows nothing after having known. And you see the earth barren, but when We send down water -rain- on it, it is stirred -to life-, it swells and puts forth every lovely kind -of growth-. )
So as you see, in many place Quran talks to those who deeply think, and those of knowledge, and I try to be one of those.
So did this answer your question????
what legitimates Koran? What guarantees you Muhammad has enlightened by God?
This point is a totaly independant point, and I don't think it is the scope of this thread. Actually it will need a lot of time, I will try to answer those to questions as my time permit. I will do so with the rest of your questions as well.
Regards
Originally posted by ahosyneyThank you for the patience.
Do you ever question it?
Of course, all the time, because Quran ask me to do so, Allah , my god who I believe me ask me to think and look aroung me every where so that I make sure of my believes, and every time I do so I became more and more trusting of my faith.
What do you think a God would prefer? A submitting sheep or a questioning ...[text shortened]... tions as my time permit. I will do so with the rest of your questions as well.
Regards
I think the most relevant point is proof of the veracity of Quran and Mohammed.
The "sunnah" (?) (teachings and life of Mohammed, I think...) also poses me immense doubts.
And if Muslims admit Abraham and Jesus as prophet and messiah, how to justify the incoherences between Bible and Quran?
Originally posted by serigadoI am not denying your ability to love others. I guess I would compare it to finding the love of your life. Before you found them you thought you were doing just fine, however, after you found them you realize what true happiness really is and you wonder what you would ever do without them.
Love is possible without turning to Christ. Christianity has no rights on this one. If you only found love after you turned to religion, let me tell there are other ways. You only needed an inner reflection of your self, not turn to any religion.
So, you can get love, peace, respect, moral from the natural, non religious world. Religion is only different w ...[text shortened]... ill be immortals and be able to achieve things no one wonders nowadays. Just give it the time.
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Originally posted by TheMaster37But he has proved himself in the past to such people as Adam and Eve who he walked and talked to evey day....that is, just before they fell. He also proved himself to the children of Israel as they saw him plague the Egyptians until they let them free and then split the Red Sea before them so they could pass and then let the waters crash down upon the pursuing Pharaoh and his army. Then they later inexplicably built a golden calf to worship in his stead. Yep, it seems that proving himself does him a world of good, no?
If God really cared about where we end up after we die, he would give us proof of His existence.
Without proof for us, He doesn't care, He's not there or He's powerless to give proof.
I definitely think that any good god would prefer followers that think for themselves instead of blindly following what's in a book.
I think this is why God requires faith. Faith is not merely a mental exercise of consent that he exists, rather, it has relational implications. For example, you may believe that I exist, however, would you place your faith in me?
Originally posted by serigadoThere are two points in answering your questions about Quran and the prophet:
Thank you for the patience.
I think the most relevant point is proof of the veracity of Quran and Mohammed.
The "sunnah" (?) (teachings and life of Mohammed, I think...) also poses me immense doubts.
And if Muslims admit Abraham and Jesus as prophet and messiah, how to justify the incoherences between Bible and Quran?
1- Are the Quran and Sunnah are realy from GOD?
2- Are the Quran and Sunnah we have today is the one given to the prophet?
They are two different points, and the second one could be one of the proofs for the first one.
I discussed the second point in different threads here, as much as I know of course, so Can I ask you to go to the following thread and read it? (or as much as you can)
Thread 72596
And I will try to follow on with you!!!
Originally posted by ahosyneyI read the thread. Good reading.
There are two points in answering your questions about Quran and the prophet:
1- Are the Quran and Sunnah are realy from GOD?
2- Are the Quran and Sunnah we have today is the one given to the prophet?
They are two different points, and the second one could be one of the proofs for the first one.
I discussed the second point in different threads h ...[text shortened]... (or as much as you can)
Thread 72596
And I will try to follow on with you!!!
I think the Sunnah (Hadith? - what's the difference?) is quite debatable. Even admitting the words are exactly those of the prophet, what guarantees us the prophet lived a perfect, exemplary life? Who tells us his sayings don't have to be contextualized in his time?
But before questioning this, the Quran itself must be put to proof. And nothing tells me now it isn't simply the work of some good men who were trying make a revolution in their time and in their world. I read some "evidence" that science is in accordance with the Quran, but that is quite a leap of interpretation.
Just because a man says God or an angel spoke to him, is not enough.
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Originally posted by serigadoHow do you know what 'sin justifies' with regard to punishment?
No sin justifies eternal damnation. I'm not trying to run away from my responsibilities nor cast off blames.
Now when someone says "if you're not baptized, you go to Hell", "if you don't submit to God, you go to Hell", etc, that sounds unfair to me. If you are ok with, I guess we simply have different perspectives of what justice is.
You are in the middle of a life of sin, in the midst of sinners, sinning
and doing so while justifying themselves before God and man. So
where do you get your insight, how is it your perspective is clean
and just? How do you justify telling God what sin merits as a crime?
Sin are crimes against God, even sins against people here are
crimes against God as Jesus said that when you do something to
the least of His you do it to Him. So where do you get off telling
God what is just and right when it comes to crimes against Him and
those that belong to Him?
Your responsibilities before God are what? You reject God do you
not? Since God is only going to be showing mercy to any that come
to Him on His terms they will receive forgiveness to the nth degree
for all their sins and will receive God's grace and mercy and they will
not get anything thrown in their faces for their sins, forgiveness will
be totally complete. So if the grace and mercy is that great; where
do you think those that get God's wrath will show up on the mercy
scale? As those that receive God's mercy will not get reminded of
their guilt at all with what they receive; those that receive God's wrath
will receive no mercy or grace mixed into their punishment there will be
no let up at any point. You may not like this, but that does not change
anything one way or another.
Kelly
To the Original poster...
#1 God is Perfect, You are not. That is what sin is.
#2 God is Life, without Him You don't have Life. (Note that your heartbeat and breath have NOTHING to do with Life.)
#3 God being Perfect can have nothing to do with imperfection, else he becomes imperfect and that can't happen because of the nature of God.
#4 God loves You and wants You to be in fellowship with Him, but because You are imperfect He can't fellowship with You unless you are made as perfect.
#5 Your imperfections (sins) must be covered by a blood sacrifice. Said blood sacrifice has to be without blemish otherwise it won't work. Jesus was Your perfect blood sacrifice.
#6 Jesus died on the execution stake at Calvary as a perfect blood sacrifice to cover Your sins so that You can have Life and fellowship with Him.
#7 Hell is to be without God, and without God there is no Life, God doesn't send you or put you in Hell, You do.
Oh and BTW Your righteousness (or how good You think You are) is as filthy rags to God.
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God being Perfect can have nothing to do with imperfection, else he becomes imperfect and that can't happen because of the nature of God...but because You are imperfect He can't fellowship with You unless you are made as perfect.
God has to protect himself from the taint of imperfection? God-incarnate as the Christ kept himself apart from those who were imperfect? Refused to eat with “tax collectors and sinners”?
This is what happens when people pass over the message of the incarnation, and jump straight to a theology of the cross. This is what happens when people confuse God’s essence—which is agape—with God’s attributes, which must be expressions of that essence. This is what happens when one forgets that there was a post-apostolic Christianity before the Great Schism of 1054, and before the 16th century Protestant Reformation with it’s new doctrine of sola scriptura, read through new theological lenses.
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The Greek word translated as perfect is teleios, which carries the meanings of complete or fulfilled; whole or undivided, in full measure; full-grown, mature. The word for sinless, or without fault, failure or error, is anamartetos.
soterias, translated as salvation, means to make whole or make well; to heal. soterias is effected via the releasing (aphesis; “forgiveness” ), or removal (atheteisis), of sin (hamartia) / illusion (plani)—so that one might become whole, complete, mature (teleios)—removing the effects of illness, so that one might become wholly healthy. This is the purpose of the divine logos assuming human nature (all of it, as St. Gregory of Nyssa pointed out): to thereby heal humanity. This is the main soteriological teaching of the early church, and of Orthodoxy down to this day (although this is certainly a severe abbreviation).
As Oxford scholar Morwenna Ludlow, writing of the Cappadocian fathers (4th century), put it: “This viewpoint rests on a theory of redemption which stresses the Incarnation more than the cross; it sees salvation in terms of healing and divinization....” (Morwenna Ludlow, “The Cappadocians,” in The First Christian Theologians: An Introduction to Theology in the Early Church, edited by G.R. Evans.) Irenaeus (2nd century) explicitly defined soterias as healing. This stands in marked contrast to the more juridical models of salvation emphasized in the West, and especially in Protestant “theologies of the cross.”
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A perfect physician, who is perfectly intolerant of disease, is not intolerant of the afflicted patient; he doesn’t “have nothing to do with” the patient: he heals. The message of the incarnation is that God does that through the most radical act of “fellowship”.
EDIT:
To flesh out this relatively spare post a bit, you might read my posts on pages 1 and 3 of this thread, and my response to FreakyKBH on page 3 of this one: http://www.redhotpawn.com/board/showthread.php?threadid=79525&page=3. (Please note, however, that the possibility of universal salvation and the nature of salvation are separate issues; I tend to think that the latter, in the context of a God who is agape, leads to the former, but that is not a necessary connection—as many on here have pointed out to me in the past.)
Originally posted by vistesdFirst I said nothing of God needing to "protect" himself, God simply can't be made imperfect.
[b]God being Perfect can have nothing to do with imperfection, else he becomes imperfect and that can't happen because of the nature of God...but because You are imperfect He can't fellowship with You unless you are made as perfect.
God has to protect himself from the taint of imperfection? God-incarnate as the Christ kept himself apart from those who were imperfect? Refused to eat with “tax collectors and sinners”?
I said nothing of the Incarnation with regards to Jesus as God fellowshipping among us because, the Incarnation was God's solution to the fellowship problem. God became man in order for us to have a perfect sacrifice.
Perhaps the original poster and others with questions should stop asking/listening to what Men have to say on the subject and start asking/listening to God.
Originally posted by KellyJayI do not know nothing for sure, you forget? I'm only stating my opinion and my arguments and logic. I don't pretend nothing else. I get my insight from my imperfect life. I will go talk to God with the reasoning God himself has given me, built of what I think is right. If I'm not right, I hope God corrects me instead of sending me to Hell as punishment for asking, instead of submitting blindly. If that happens, I walk straight because I have always been faithful to myself and to reasoning, reasoning that God himself has created.
How do you know what 'sin justifies' with regard to punishment?
You are in the middle of a life of sin, in the midst of sinners, sinning
and doing so while justifying themselves before God and man. So
where do you get your insight, how is it your perspective is clean
and just? How do you justify telling God what sin merits as a crime?
Sin are crimes ...[text shortened]... oint. You may not like this, but that does not change
anything one way or another.
Kelly
I don't reject God. I simply think, according to all my knowledge (imperfect, possibly wrong), that the most plausible scenario is that the religious God you believe does not exist.
You certainly are taking me away from Christianity with all your fundamentalism. Now I start to look at Islam. As a religion, they are much more advanced then you.
Originally posted by SourJaxThat would be me 🙂
To the Original poster...
#1 God is Perfect, You are not. That is what sin is.
#2 God is Life, without Him You don't have Life. (Note that your heartbeat and breath have NOTHING to do with Life.)
#3 God being Perfect can have nothing to do with imperfection, else he becomes imperfect and that can't happen because of the nature of God.
#4 God loves You ...[text shortened]... o.
Oh and BTW Your righteousness (or how good You think You are) is as filthy rags to God.
I could ask where did you get all those truths you are so sure about, and question their veracity. I know it's lost time, but I beg you to keep an open mind and question your assumptions, all the time.
I have my reasoning, imperfect as it may be compared to God, is quite good in human standards. The only difference between us is that I'm not willing to take as an absolute truth the belief in a book like the Bible that is completely incoherent in the internal level and ridiculous when put to the independent test of science. You can bend you reality and reasoning to whatever you like to justify the veracity of the bible, but in MY reasoning, the Bible can't be true. I can't even imagine how someone can say it is without abdicating from a lot of logic and good reasoning.
So you can keep your reasoning while I now turn to Islam (bad as you may think it is, it's a lot more coherent and logic then Christianity and its blind faith).
Originally posted by SourJaxFirst I said nothing of God needing to "protect" himself, God simply can't be made imperfect.
First I said nothing of God needing to "protect" himself, God simply can't be made imperfect.
I said nothing of the Incarnation with regards to Jesus as God fellowshipping among us because, the Incarnation was God's solution to the fellowship problem. God became man in order for us to have a perfect sacrifice.
Perhaps the original poster and others w ...[text shortened]... p asking/listening to what Men have to say on the subject and start asking/listening to God.
It was the “else he becomes imperfect” an so can “have nothing to do with imperfection” that confused me.
I said nothing of the Incarnation with regards to Jesus as God fellowshipping among us because, the Incarnation was God's solution to the fellowship problem.
The Greek word sometimes translated as fellowship is koinonia; I tend to like “communion” better. The Friberg Lexicon sets it in terms of “sharing in common”. The Liddel-Scott lexicon quotes Eurpides: “What communion have the herdsmen with the sea?” The term has also been used to refer to marital or sexual intimacy.
—2 Corinthians 6:14 . . . Or what communion light with darkness?
However, human beings are not entirely dark; the fall does not lead to Calvin’s “total depravity.”
Nevertheless, I would say that the Incarnation was not only the solution, in itself it was an act of communion: two natures in one hypostasis. In which, metaphorically, the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness cannot overcome it (nor can the darkness flee). But that is the healing light of God’s perfect agape.
God became man in order for us to have a perfect sacrifice.
Well, a bit more than that, I think. Nevertheless, the “priestly-sacrifice” motif is one of the soteriological metaphors in the NT (especially in Hebrews). It is not the only one.
In any event, I would say that the incarnation is offering/sacrifice (in the sense of kenosis); “sacrifice” (thusia) really means “offering”—and does not have to be limited to the cross (the English word simply means to make holy or sacred).
Again, the physician offers (“sacrifices” ) his time and powers of healing in order to heal. The perfect physician heals perfectly.