When I mean proof, I don't mean hear-say. Adam and Eve are hear-say. Mohammed is hear-say.
The Bible, Qu'ran (spelling alright?), or any religious book is just written by a human.
What proof do I have that that human actually wrote what his god wanted to write? What proof is there that they didn't make something nice up and that we are contributing a lot of nonsense to a god that doesn't want the nonsense?
Proof is something right ehre, right now that our scientists can work at. Once identified as genuine, that's proof.
Originally posted by TheMaster37That's what I was trying to ask in another topic (veracity of the bible), but I think you posed the problem better then me.
When I mean proof, I don't mean hear-say. Adam and Eve are hear-say. Mohammed is hear-say.
The Bible, Qu'ran (spelling alright?), or any religious book is just written by a human.
What proof do I have that that human actually wrote what his god wanted to write? What proof is there that they didn't make something nice up and that we are contributing ...[text shortened]... ehre, right now that our scientists can work at. Once identified as genuine, that's proof.
In here I assumed the Bible to be true to show how internally incoherent it is.
It's an hard task, believe me.
Proof is something right ehre, right now that our scientists can work at. Once identified as genuine, that's proof.
I must disagree. Scientists can never make proofs about reality. Proof exists in Mathematics. Scientists study plausible theories that with time can be shown to be in great accordance with reality. It proves nothing, it's merely "highly likely".
I small preciosity from me, sorry 🙂
Originally posted by serigadoNo apologies needed 🙂
That's what I was trying to ask in another topic (veracity of the bible), but I think you posed the problem better then me.
In here I assumed the Bible to be true to show how internally incoherent it is.
It's an hard task, believe me.
[b]Proof is something right ehre, right now that our scientists can work at. Once identified as genuine, that's proof.[ ...[text shortened]... ity. It proves nothing, it's merely "highly likely".
I small preciosity from me, sorry 🙂
I am a mathematician, though I did mean what I typed :p
I do suppose that proving something is really divine is a hard thing to do when we don't know what qualifies as divine.
A big face in the clouds saying "I am God, you are in trouble" would go a long way. Then our scientist go at it trying to show it's trickery. But if they fail to show it's trickery, then I'm left with only two options:
- believe it's really divine.
- believe it's a trick we can't detect yet.
Other things work as well. Make a sea burn, heal some million diseases at once, make the ground bleed blood, change water into wine, or lead into gold.
All those so called miracles are nothing but hear-say. I would like a miracle, one that is not refuted by science.
I am getting off-topic though. I will stop doing so 🙂
Originally posted by TheMaster37So in your opinion, when or at what point in history did the "Lies" begin. Because if the Bible doesn't hold true, at some point in history the "Lies" had to begin. So at what point did an entire nation (OT) start collectively lying to the rest of the world. With all the signs and miracles that God performed in the "Old Testament" (assuming the Bible is just one big lie) at what point did the entire nation of Israel decide that they would make up a bunch of (in your opinion) crazy stories and change the course of all of history.
When I mean proof, I don't mean hear-say. Adam and Eve are hear-say. Mohammed is hear-say.
The Bible, Qu'ran (spelling alright?), or any religious book is just written by a human.
What proof do I have that that human actually wrote what his god wanted to write? What proof is there that they didn't make something nice up and that we are contributing ...[text shortened]... ehre, right now that our scientists can work at. Once identified as genuine, that's proof.
How do you explain the irrational hatred for the God of the Bible and the nation of Israel. The Bible consists of 66 books written by several different people over the course of a pretty large amount of time, at some point in history it seems that the "Lie" would have been exposed by now. Yet know one, not one person in all of recorded history can definitively refute the claims of the Bible and of Jesus the Christ.
Too many people rely on what others have said or written about what God says in scripture instead of going to the author. If you have questions about the veracity of scripture go to the person who wrote it, God.
You ask for proof that God wrote the Bible, ask him and he'll give you proof. Ask and you shall receive, seek and you shall find, knock and the door shall be opened unto you.
Originally posted by TheMaster37Read this Hadith for the prophet:
When I mean proof, I don't mean hear-say. Adam and Eve are hear-say. Mohammed is hear-say.
The Bible, Qu'ran (spelling alright?), or any religious book is just written by a human.
What proof do I have that that human actually wrote what his god wanted to write? What proof is there that they didn't make something nice up and that we are contributing ...[text shortened]... ehre, right now that our scientists can work at. Once identified as genuine, that's proof.
Volume 4, Book 54, Number 537:
Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said "If a house fly falls in the drink of anyone of you, he should dip it (in the drink), for one of its wings has a disease and the other has the cure for the disease."
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/054.sbt.html#004.054.537
Then look at this link and tell me what you think:
http://www.abc.net.au/science/news/stories/s689400.htm
Do you consider this as a proof?
I can not imagine what proof is out there that the world was created by "GOD".
The key is faith. One must have faith in what ever operating system they choose to embrace.
If it is the Church of Logic. Then you need to have faith the operating rules have been properly proved out. Or you need to do it yourself. What questions were asked to make sure it can not be dis-proved.
I am beginning to think that I will never get to know the "TRUTH". I only will get to know that which can not be dis-proved. This has been quite a struggle for me at different times but I do not see any other options out there at this time.
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Originally posted by 8DThere are plenty of things you can know.
I am beginning to think that I will never get to know the "TRUTH". I only will get to know that which can not be dis-proved. This has been quite a struggle for me at different times but I do not see any other options out there at this time.
For example, you can know that you cannot unbake a cake. You can know how many fingers you have. You can know that you cannot drive from New Zealand to Moscow. You can know that helicopters fly differently than airplanes do. You can know that serpents don't speak Hebrew.
Originally posted by ahosyneyI don't consider it any proof. You can find some resemblances with the situations, that is by no means proof. If it was written specifically, that would be a different story. There are hundreds of sentences like that written in old days that nowadays can be compared to recent advances in science. That's very natural.
Read this Hadith for the prophet:
Volume 4, Book 54, Number 537:
Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said "If a house fly falls in the drink of anyone of you, he should dip it (in the drink), for one of its wings has a disease and the other has the cure for the disease."
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/054.sbt.html#004.05 ...[text shortened]... :
http://www.abc.net.au/science/news/stories/s689400.htm
Do you consider this as a proof?
Originally posted by serigadoI'm not the one that promotes we can know nothing for sure!
I do not know nothing for sure, you forget? I'm only stating my opinion and my arguments and logic. I don't pretend nothing else. I get my insight from my imperfect life. I will go talk to God with the reasoning God himself has given me, built of what I think is right. If I'm not right, I hope God corrects me instead of sending me to Hell as punishment for ...[text shortened]... entalism. Now I start to look at Islam. As a religion, they are much more advanced then you.
You are now saying, "No sin justifies eternal damnation." is just your
opinion?
Now you are saying that the God I believe in does not exist, exactly
how do you know that? What God is it you are refering too? I've never
attempted to talk you into Christianity, the only discussions we have
had have been over what we can call a fact and what is a belief or a
matter of faith. The only thing I have ever gotten from you has been
insults one after another, we really have not had a discussion.
As far as you find God, hope you do.
Kelly
Originally posted by KellyJayYou are now saying, "No sin justifies eternal damnation." is just your
I'm not the one that promotes we can know nothing for sure!
You are now saying, "No sin justifies eternal damnation." is just your
opinion?
Now you are saying that the God I believe in does not exist, exactly
how do you know that? What God is it you are refering too? I've never
attempted to talk you into Christianity, the only discussions we have
...[text shortened]... another, we really have not had a discussion.
As far as you find God, hope you do.
Kelly
opinion?
Of course it's my opinion. BTW, I'm against death penalty too.
I don't say that the God you believe does not exist. I could I know such a fact? I say the description of your God made by the Bible makes plausible that the Bible isn't correct, and quite possibly your God a men made invention.
Sorry if I insulted you. I tend to be ultra-pragmatical too many times, and I feel we can't ever have a true discussion because you always put your faith above facts and evidences, and never try to admit, even as absurd, the antagonistic position.
Don't take fundamentalist as an insult. It should be a compliment for you. Means you can't be moved out of your faith, nothing more.
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Originally posted by DoctorScribblesReally are you not just depending upon observation and its relation to statistical probablity? What about other observations that are spiritual "truths" in the Bible such what a man sows that will he also reap. It seems to me based upon statistical observations this saying is true as well.
There are plenty of things you can know.
For example, you can know that you cannot unbake a cake. You can know how many fingers you have. You can know that you cannot drive from New Zealand to Moscow. You can know that helicopters fly differently than airplanes do. You can know that serpents don't speak Hebrew.
In fact, the Bible makes some other radical claims regarding love. Firstly, it says that God is love. Secondly, it says that walking in love is the greatest commandment and if you walk in it you will keep all the commandments without even trying which is logical because God is love and love is all that matters. Thirdly, it says that without love you are NOTHING! Knowing what you observe in your own life and the world around you how is this wrong? The problem being, of coarse, is first identifying what is love and how it is measured? No matter your answer one must admitt on some level that love does exist and it is all that matters to us just as God exists and is all that matters!!
Originally posted by serigadoMy saying something is a matter of faith is not saying it isn't true,
[b]You are now saying, "No sin justifies eternal damnation." is just your
opinion?
Of course it's my opinion. BTW, I'm against death penalty too.
I don't say that the God you believe does not exist. I could I know such a fact? I say the description of your God made by the Bible makes plausible that the Bible isn't correct, and quite possibly your ...[text shortened]... ould be a compliment for you. Means you can't be moved out of your faith, nothing more.[/b]
only that it cannot be proven to be wrong or right at least cannot
be at the moment. I believe in God, I believe God is real and the
ultimate reality that does not mean I can say to you God is a fact
though I believe that to be true, I cannot prove it to you, I cannot
show how I can be right or wrong, I can only give you my reasons
for my faith.
I see the same evidence you do on the age of the universe; however,
my beliefs about the conclusions people draw from them do not allow
me to accept the conclusions as facts, you may not agree with the
issues I have with testing methods and statistics on proving billions
of years, I think they are the same with respect to not being able to
be shown to be wrong when it comes to billions of years. I do not
take fundamentalism as an insult though I know other mean as such.
With respect to my being moved off of a position that has occurred
with me in the past so I think you are painting with a brush I do not
deserve. I see you and others as having a position that you cannot be
moved off to, but for some reason when you/we (it is a human trait
we all share) see this in ourselves it is due to the wisdom you have,
not a matter of fundamentalism.
Kelly