14 Feb 13
I'll let the Bible speak:
1 Corinthians 5:9-13
Today's New International Version (TNIV)
9 I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10 not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11 But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with any who claim to be fellow believers but are sexually immoral or greedy, idolaters or slanderers, drunkards or swindlers. With such persons do not even eat.
12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13 God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked person from among you.”[a]
2 John 1:9-11
Today's New International Version (TNIV)
9 Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. 10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take them into your house or welcome them. 11 Anyone who welcomes them shares in their wicked work.
Matthew 10:34-36
Today's New International Version (TNIV)
34 “Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to turn
“‘a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—
36 your enemies will be the members of your own household.’[a]
1 John 2:19
Today's New International Version (TNIV)
19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.
Cross references:1 John 2:19 : Ac 20:301 John 2:19 : 1Co 11:19
1 Timothy 5:20
New Living Translation (NLT)
20 Those who sin should be reprimanded in front of the whole church; this will serve as a strong warning to others.
If anyone here feels we are wrong in our stand of disfellowshipping, then the Bible must be wrong in your eyes.
14 Feb 13
Originally posted by galveston75Why can't you understand that context is important to understanding what is written?
I'll let the Bible speak:
1 Corinthians 5:9-13
Today's New International Version (TNIV)
9 I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10 not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11 But now I am writing to y ...[text shortened]... we are wrong in our stand of disfellowshipping, then the Bible must be wrong in your eyes.
14 Feb 13
Originally posted by galveston75Hummm? So no one is willing to refute these scriptures on how the congregations are to handle ones who do not want to be keep themselves clean both spiritually and physically in God's eyes?
I'll let the Bible speak:
1 Corinthians 5:9-13
Today's New International Version (TNIV)
9 I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10 not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11 But now I am writing to y ...[text shortened]... we are wrong in our stand of disfellowshipping, then the Bible must be wrong in your eyes.
Originally posted by galveston75Guess what? You still have not addressed either of my questions!
I'll let the Bible speak:
1 Corinthians 5:9-13
Today's New International Version (TNIV)
9 I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10 not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11 But now I am writing to y we are wrong in our stand of disfellowshipping, then the Bible must be wrong in your eyes.
Wow, you really, really, really don't get it, do you?
Your response here is (1) irrelevant with respect to addressing the questions I have asked you multiple times now and (2) typical of cult-induced mindset.
Regarding (1), your response is irrelevant with respect to addressing my questions because my questions are in regards to persons who may choose to disassociate for valid, justified reasons. Your response here has absolutely nothing to do with that: your response just blanketly assumes that persons who disassociate are wicked persons with behavioral and character failings, etc, and who have no interest to pursue Christian teachings, which is at best questioning-begging. You can keep on sticking your head in the sand (and I have little doubt that you will do just that), but it is really not that hard to conceive of instances where one may have justified reasons for disassociating (but, oh yeah, you JW cult members are conditioned toward the mistrust and non-exercising of your own cognitive faculties, so I realize asking you to conceive of stuff is a stretch here).
Regarding (2), your response smacks of the cult mindset whereby one just blanketly assumes that a person who would choose to disassociate from their ingroup must be wicked, evil, immoral, etc, etc; and whereby one just blanketly assumes that a person who would choose to disassociate must be disinterested in studying Christian teachings in a responsible manner. Your response here is not only cynical, but it is incredibly arrogant of you to think your cult is the only game in town for morals or teachings. Man, you guys have some chutzpah!
Now, how about actually answering my questions for once?!?
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14 Feb 13
I have a question which I would be grateful to have clarified since I'm not expert on Jehovah Witnesses. If a member of the Jehovah Witnesses leaves that church and joins a Lutheran church is he/she regarded as having walked away from Christ?
In reading all the previous postings all I could discern was anybody leaving the JW church was immediately thought to have turned their back on Christ which doesn't seem like a reasonable assumption to me given the fact that there are many Christian denominations all of which hold to a believe in Christ as their savior.
Can anyone clarify this point?
15 Feb 13
Originally posted by TheSurgeonWell explaining all the issues that most other so called Christian religions do or don't do, allow their members to do or not do is a long discussion for sure.
I have a question which I would be grateful to have clarified since I'm not expert on Jehovah Witnesses. If a member of the Jehovah Witnesses leaves that church and joins a Lutheran church is he/she regarded as having walked away from Christ?
In reading all the previous postings all I could discern was anybody leaving the JW church was immediately tho ...[text shortened]... ns all of which hold to a believe in Christ as their savior.
Can anyone clarify this point?
A simple one is their support or non support of their country with wars against even at times another so called Christian country, which has happened.
A true Christian would never kill another human under orders from a human ruled government, and would never kill a fellow brother.
That is just one of many issues and 1 example that one would no doubt be confronted with if a JW decided to leave and go to another so called Christian church.
We, the JW's do not kill which the Bible beyond any doubt explains. Jesus taught this very clearly to his followers.
So if one of our members leaves to go to another so called Christian church that not only supports wars, their government, allows any life style situatuion to come and go and be an accepted member into the church with no repercussions for those lifestyles, yes, they are leaving the teachings of Jesus and his Father Jehovah.
God is not a hypocrite and will not tolerate it from the ones who worship him. Hence the scripture that says one MUST worship with spirit and TRUTH has to be obeyed!
Originally posted by galveston75For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. Look to yourselves, that we do not lose those things we worked for, but that we may receive a full reward.
Lol. So you have a different take on these and other scriptures that clearly explain this process? Oh please let me hear your opinions....
Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into your house nor greet him; for he who greets him shares in his evil deeds.
2 John 1:7-11 NKJV)
Taken in context the above verses refers to deceivers that deny Jesus Christ is coming in the flesh and do not abide in the doctrine of Christ. The Watchtower Society claims Jesus Christ is not coming in the flesh, but has already come in the spirit. They also do not abide in the doctrine of Christ because they do not honor the Son as they honor the Father.
For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will. For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son, that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.
(John 5:21-23 NKJV)
Do you want to hear more?
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Believer's%20Corner/Doctrines/doctrine_of_christ.htm
15 Feb 13
Originally posted by RJHindsI thought we were talking about the disfellowshipping issue? Are you changing the subject?
[b]For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. Look to yourselves, that we do not lose those things we worked for, but that we may receive a full reward.
Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abi ...[text shortened]... ar more?
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Believer's%20Corner/Doctrines/doctrine_of_christ.htm
15 Feb 13
4 edits
Originally posted by galveston75One does not have to be a Jehovah's Witness to be a conscientious objector. There are other religious groups, such as the Seventh Day Adventist that they could join to avoid killing in wars. The USA has an all volunteer military, so one can become a member of any Christian Church and not be required to enter the military. So that is not a good objection to a person leaving the JWs to worship with Christians of different denominations. I volunteered for the military during the Vietnam War and served 20 years and even trained to kill, but I was given several special assignments during the war and never went to Vietnam or had to kill anyone.
Well explaining all the issues that most other so called Christian religions do or don't do, allow their members to do or not do is a long discussion for sure.
A simple one is their support or non support of their country with wars against even at times another so called Christian country, which has happened.
A true Christian would never kill another ip him. Hence the scripture that says one MUST worship with spirit and TRUTH has to be obeyed!
15 Feb 13
-Removed-Are you serious that you really are not able to see the answer to this question in my responce? Wow!
Ok. Here it is if I really have to make it this simple that a 6 year old would get it.
NO!!!!!!
If you don't want explinations and all that includes, here ya go.
So now that you have your simple answer and we know you will now ask another question, but still not understand if I do indeed give it with an explination, but then you will say I didn't answer you, it seems this type of dialog will just continue on and on and on without anything being accomplished. Right?
So it seems up to this point with you and FMF that I've done nothing other then waist my time with the two of you? Correct? So far it really seems so.
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Originally posted by galveston75I guess the way I see things is that there has never been and never will be a perfect church that is run here on earth. This is because all people are flawed and continually sin. The good news is that we don't have to be without sin to receive the gift of salvation because it's by God's grace that we are saved.
Are you serious that you really are not able to see the answer to this question in my responce? Wow!
Ok. Here it is if I really have to make it this simple that a 6 year old would get it.
NO!!!!!!
If you don't want explinations and all that includes, here ya go.
So now that you have your simple answer and we know you will now ask another ...[text shortened]... one nothing other then waist my time with the two of you? Correct? So far it really seems so.
Now as Christians we are called to strive to be more Christ like and make every effort to root out the sinful ways, but all the while we know no one except Christ Himself can achieve it in this life time. That's OK, however, because God read's the intentions of our hearts and if we are willing to accept his gift of grace and admit we aren't worthy on our own he still saves us.
I guess what I'm saying is that all Christians should be united under one common belief that accepting Christ's gift of grace is sufficient to obtain salvation. I personally think there are greater rewards in heaven waiting for those who advanced the furthest in their efforts to be more Christ like, but the Bible is pretty clear that salvation is a gift and not something we can earn since none of us are ever worthy to have earned it.
All these other disputes and differences that we have among the established denominations of Christianity are really secondary to what unites us and often results is divisive behaviors. I don't think God intended for his followers to be divided amongst themselves in argument over every detail.
Our God is a god of love. Why would he go to such extreme lengths to sacrifice his own son to atone for our sins if he didn't desire to save as many of us as he possibly could. Why would he have needed to make such a huge sacrifice if he was going to be so exclusive as to who he would save?
In short we should be united under what we have in common rather than divided by our disagreements.