Herman Cain, Christianity, Leadership

Originally posted by RJHinds
I am through trying to talk some sense to someone who obviously wants to argue and cares little about knowing the truth.

Perhaps you have a stronger argument you could offer?

Originally posted by RJHinds
As I pointed out to suzianne on another thread:
Under the Islamic religion the Koran (Quran) is their main holy book.
Allah is not the God of the Holy Bible, but the god of the Koran.
Allah has no son, but God has an only begotten Son.
Allah is Satan in disguise. Allah teaches hate not love.
Allah is the god of destruction and death, not the God of life.
Allah is the god of lies, not the God of truth.

This all will come as a great shock to those Arabic-speaking Christians whose Bibles have "Allah" as the standard Arabic word for "God", and who thus pray to Allah as God, and who never knew that Allah meant anything else--in their native language! Likely they stand condemned for never having learnt--English.

EDIT: Ooops, FMF already covered this.

Originally posted by vistesd
This all will come as a great shock to those Arabic-speaking Christians whose Bibles have "Allah" as the standard Arabic word for "God", and who thus pray to Allah as God, and who never knew that Allah meant anything else--in their native language! Likely they stand condemned for never having learnt--English.

EDIT: Ooops, FMF already covered this.

Maybe you should read about Allah the Moon-god.

http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/moongod.htm

The following is a quote of a small portion of that article:

The pagan Arabs worshipped the Moon-god Allah by praying toward Mecca several times a day; making a pilgrimage to Mecca; running around the temple of the Moon-god called the Kabah; kissing the black stone; killing an animal in sacrifice to the Moon-god; throwing stones at the devil; fasting for the month which begins and ends with the crescent moon; giving alms to the poor, etc.,

The Muslim's claim that Allah is the God of the Bible and that Islam arose from the religion of the prophets and apostles is refuted by solid, overwhelming archeological evidence. Islam is nothing more than a revival of the ancient Moon-god cult. It has taken the symbols, the rites, the ceremonies, and even the name of its god from the ancient pagan religion of the Moon-god. As such, it is sheer idolatry and must be rejected by all those who follow the Torah and Gospel.

Originally posted by FMF
Same word, same God, shared literature, different traditions.

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0042/0042_01.asp

Originally posted by RJHinds
Maybe you should read about Allah the Moon-god.

http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/moongod.htm

The following is a quote of a small portion of that article:

The pagan Arabs worshipped the Moon-god Allah by praying toward Mecca several times a day; making a pilgrimage to Mecca; running around the temple of the Moon-god called the Kabah; kissing the blac ...[text shortened]... s such, it is sheer idolatry and must be rejected by all those who follow the Torah and Gospel.

Oh, my. And Hebrew variations are El, Elah, Eloah, and Elohim (technically plural, though also used in the singular sense)—do you know where those variants occur in the Bible? Do your teachers and your approved sources recognize them (they are in the Bible)?

Originally posted by vistesd
Oh, my. And Hebrew variations are El, Elah, Eloah, and Elohim (technically plural, though also used in the singular sense)—do you know where those variants occur in the Bible? Do your teachers and your approved sources recognize them (they are in the Bible)?

You must have not read the reference article.

Originally posted by RJHinds
Maybe you should read about Allah the Moon-god.

http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/moongod.htm

The following is a quote of a small portion of that article:

The pagan Arabs worshipped the Moon-god Allah by praying toward Mecca several times a day; making a pilgrimage to Mecca; running around the temple of the Moon-god called the Kabah; kissing the blac s such, it is sheer idolatry and must be rejected by all those who follow the Torah and Gospel.

There is good reason to believe that the crescent moon now commonly associated with Islam is the moon-bow of Artemis (Diana) the Huntress, a Greek goddess. The symbol was used by the Byzantines who were a Christian Greek empire. Thus it came from Christians who borrowed a pagan symbol to help woo the masses as they did all the time. When the Turks took Byzantium they adopted the symbol as a symbol of Empire, as the Byzantines had, and then the Ottomans took over the Muslim world and flew Diana's flag over all of them.

Originally posted by AThousandYoung
There is good reason to believe that the crescent moon now commonly associated with Islam is the moon-bow of Artemis (Diana) the Huntress, a Greek goddess. The symbol was used by the Byzantines who were a Christian Greek empire. Thus it came from Christians who borrowed a pagan symbol to help woo the masses as they did all the time. When the Turks ...[text shortened]... s had, and then the Ottomans took over the Muslim world and flew Diana's flag over all of them.

Where is your reference that Christians used the cresent moon symbol as
a part of Christianity? Why don't the Christians bow to the moon-god
like the Muslims?

Originally posted by RJHinds
Why don't the Christians bow to the moon-god like the Muslims?

The Muslims where I live - and there's no bigger Muslim majority nation in the world - don't "bow" to any "moon god". Which Muslims do you reckon you're referring to?

Originally posted by RJHinds
http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0042/0042_01.asp

Same word, same God, shared literature, different traditions.

Originally posted by FMF
The Muslims where I live - and there's no bigger Muslim majority nation in the world - don't "bow" to any "moon god". Which Muslims do you reckon you're referring to?

Are you absolutely sure? You better check again.

http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/moongod.htm

The Allah of the Muslims is not the Yah of the Jewish Torah.
The Allah of the Muslims is certainly not the Yahshua of the Christians.
The Muslims worship a different god. Islams' description of their god
does not match the description of the God described in the Holy Bible.
You say same word, same God, shared literature, different traditions.
We agree that there are different traditions. One of these different
traditions comes from the moon-god represented by the crescent moon.
Christians and Jews do not share the lterature of the Koran (Quran),
which declares both the Jewish Torah and the Christian New Testament
in error. The word for their God, Allah is singular and does not allow for
the Triune God that the Jewish Torah does by using the plural Hebrew
"Elohim" in Genesis. Then God (Elohim) said, "Let Us make man in Our
image, according to Our likeness..." (Genesis 1:26) See the reference
for an explanation of the above. So I disagree that Allah is the same
word. Allah is not the same God (Elohim) and Christians do not share
the Koran (Quran) as inspired literature.

Originally posted by RJHinds
Are you absolutely sure?

Yes. They don't worship any moon god. Has some hardline Christian web site told you that they do?

Originally posted by RJHinds
Islams' description of their god does not match the description of the God described in the Holy Bible.

All I am hearing from you is that Muslims are not Christians. Nobody disputes that Muslims are not Christians. Two different traditions worshiping the same God.

Originally posted by RJHinds
You must have not read the reference article.

Yes, I read the essay. The most egregious error in it is that of mis-conflation. The fact is that the language (in this case Arabic) is prior to the particular religion, and is adapted to the religion—rather than being created by it. The same is true for Christians, and the various “god words” that they used. For example—

The Greek word theos, which is translated into English as “god” was used by the Greek polytheists to refer to their deities, and was used by the Stoics to refer to Nature (phusis). By the argument you are presenting (and in the article), that means that—

________________________________________________

“Theists” really worship the divinity of pagan nature gods, even if they now say that there is just one such nature god: “God”. In fact, Christians claim that they worship YHVH, but the very fact that they use the word “God” shows that they are pagans. The Hebrew scriptures actually record the conflict (often confused in the text) between the pagan deity “El” (also called Elah and Eloah)—and various representations of “El”, i.e. the elohim (literally, “gods” ); El was originally the Sumerian bull-god. It was actually the elohim who created the heavens and the earth, as is proved by the first sentence in the Old Testament: B’resheet bara elohim ha’shamayim v’ ha’aretz—that is: “In the beginning created the gods the heavens and the earth.”

Therefore (and this is just a quick summary), whether you focus on the Hebrew or the Greek scriptures, they show that Christians actually started to worship El/Theos—the divinity of the pagan nature worshippers. Because that is where their words for “god” really come from.

[Do I really have to decalre a “sarcasm alert” for this section between the two lines? The argument from the essay RJ cited deserves no less sarcasm.]
____________________________________________

Allah became the basic Arabic word for “god”; El (and its variants) became the basic Hebrew word for “god”; Theos became the basic Christian word for “god”; and the Germanic Gott became the English word for “god” that Christians use (even though it predated Christianity and was applied to Norse/Germanic gods such as Odin. None of that says anything at all about the kind of god that Arabic-speaking people believe in—or Hebrew-speaking people, German-speaking people, or English speaking people. And that is what the essay that you cited fails to note. Once again—for Jews and Muslims and Christians—the language, including its various words for divinity, preceded the religion.

Originally posted by FMF
All I am hearing from you is that Muslims are not Christians. Nobody disputes that Muslims are not Christians. Two different traditions worshiping the same God.

Yes, but if RJ were just to admit that their concepts of that God are different (at least with regard to trinitarian Chrsitians*), then there would be little argument--but that is true vis-a-vis Jews and non-trintarian Chrisitans as well (not to mention non-dualist strains across the board, even when they use "g-language" ).

* Likely, RJ considers trintarians to be the only "True Christians™"; and he is far from alone in that.