Originally posted by PinkFloydWhy not be honest and straight forward and say 'my interpretation of the Bible'? Thats what you mean. The whole reason for the discussion is that different people are interpreting various verses differently or giving different verses different weight. Some are even going to the extent of saying that what Paul said might in fact be wrong. But you are probably one of those people who thinks that every word of the bible is straight from the mouth of God - but I am sure you cannot give a good argument to back up why you believe that.
My Bible says He says we are saved by grace through faith alone.
Originally posted by epiphinehasThose who do good works do it for Christ.
No, you don't trust in God.
Your trust rests in yourself to perform the required works.
Everytime we feed the poor, we feed Christ. If we dont, we dont love Christ
Everytime we clothe the naked, we clothe Christ. If we dont we dont love Christ
Everytime we visit the sick, we visit Christ. If we dont we dont love Christ
Everytime we give and help , we give and help Christ. If we dont we dont love Christ.
Salvation rests on our ability to give of ourselves unselfishly and willingly without wanting earthly reward. Christ does not want our words and promises. He has asked for action, for doers of His commandments. You people preach 'TALK', not doing.
Matt 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 for I was hungry, and ye gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink; I was a stranger, and ye took me in;
36 naked, and ye clothed me; I was sick, and ye visited me; I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee hungry, and fed thee? or athirst, and gave thee drink?
38 And when saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 And when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it unto one of these my brethren, [even] these least, ye did it unto me.
Originally posted by PinkFloydExceptions, if you think about it, apply to exceptional circumstances. Are you in an exceptional circumstance? Are you hanging from a cross? On your deathbed? In an lifethreatening situation? Or a similarly unusual situation ? Yes? Then I guess you can expect exceptional treatment from Christ. If not, I would be worried if I were you.
My Bible says He says we are saved by grace through faith alone. There is a verse that says "baptism now saves you", which of course is the cause of all the ruckus. Some see this as an addition to the requirements of salvation; some of us do not. But it's not something that need cause a schism in Christendom. I agree Christ makes any exceptions He want 't have to be baptised, that just as well could apply to me, you, or any other Christian.
By the way that same Bible also says 'faith without works is dead'. Dead means hopeless. So marry the 2 ideas and you get :
faith + works = salvation.
Originally posted by Rajk999Salvation rests on our ability...
Those who do good works do it for Christ.
Everytime we feed the poor, we feed Christ. If we dont, we dont love Christ
Everytime we clothe the naked, we clothe Christ. If we dont we dont love Christ
Everytime we visit the sick, we visit Christ. If we dont we dont love Christ
Everytime we give and help , we give and help Christ. If we dont we dont love Ch u, Inasmuch as ye did it unto one of these my brethren, [even] these least, ye did it unto me.
Just as I suspected, Rajk: your faith rests in your own ability rather than in Christ.
You say God is absolutely trustworthy and reliable, yet you neither trust Him nor rely upon Him.
It is no wonder that you, like ToO, fail to demonstrate a transformed heart.
The insults you hurl at others reveal your secret: an unregenerate (i.e., an in need of being born again) nature.
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Don't you know that you can't do anything without faith in Christ?
"Without faith it is impossible to please Him" (Hebrews 11:6).
"Apart from me you can do nothing" (John 15:5).
You talk and talk and talk about works, yet fail to understand that the work which God requires is faith. Faith!
"Then they said to him, "What must we do, to be doing the works of God?" Jesus answered them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent"" (John 6:28-29).
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I respect your call to good works, Rajk, I do, but you must realize that it is God who works in and through the faithful.
"It is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13).
As long as you believe that salvation rests in your ability, then you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Never.
"Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven" (Matthew 18:3).
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You say "Christ does not want words," yet all you have are words! You say, "He has asked for action, for doers of His commandments," yet you do not fulfill his commandments yourself! By hurling bitter insults at others you break the very commandments which Christ taught!
And then you have the GALL to tell me that I'm the one preaching 'TALK' and no doing!!!
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Let me hold the mirror up a little closer:
Rajk999: "Christ does not want our words... He has asked for action, for doers of His commandments."
Jesus Christ: "You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable to judgment.' But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council" (Matthew 5:21-22).
Rajk999: "Learn to insult people properly or get back to the culture thread .. you little pussy." - Thread 96476, page 24.
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I hope it is as clear to you as it is to everyone else reading this that you, in fact, are the one "talking and not doing."
This is a BIG CLUE that you need to get right with God, Rajk.
I say this in humility, without boasting.
Peace.
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Rajk999: "Learn to insult people properly or get back to the culture thread .. you little pussy." - Thread 96476, page
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Now if you are a follower of Jesus you should bring this sin under the blood of Jesus. As John taught - If we confess our sins He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make HIm a liar, and His word is not in us." (1 John 1:9,10)
Thank Him for His atoning death for your sins. And thank Him for the opportunity to live and walk in the Holy Spirit. Since you had a failure you need not give up in dispair. You need not claim that you have never been saved.
You take the blood of Jesus to restore peace to your conscience. Confessing your wrong to the person to whom you said this would be good too.
Then you go on the walk in the divine life of the indwelling Spirit assuming that you have been born again of the Spirit.
This is how we Christians should handle such a situation. Yes, I have apologized myself to posters for things said which my Christian conscience bothered me.
Originally posted by jaywillGood point, Jaywill.
[b]=====================================
Rajk999: "Learn to insult people properly or get back to the culture thread .. you little pussy." - Thread 96476, page
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Now if you are a follower of Jesus you should bring this sin under the blood of Jesus. As John taught - If we confess our sins He is faithful and r ...[text shortened]... have apologized myself to posters for things said which my Christians conscience bothered me.
God bless.
Originally posted by epiphinehasWhile I would like to think you are one of the faithful and you do good works as well, I am really not interested in your personal faith or behaviour or the harsh words you may have said to others, Epi. So I will not comment on that. This discussion, which you are obviously trying to derail by making personal remarks about me, is about what gives a Christian salvation. Its not about me. Its not about whether or not my salvation hangs in the balance. So dont preach to me. I will respond to the useful points you brought up ... unfortunately very little as 90% of your post is about me.
[b]Salvation rests on our ability...
Just as I suspected, Rajk: your faith rests in your own ability rather than in Christ.
You say God is absolutely trustworthy and reliable, yet you neither trust Him nor rely upon Him.
It is no wonder that you, like ToO, fail to demonstrate a transformed heart.
The insults you hurl d, Rajk.
I say this in humility, without boasting.
Peace.[/b]
The fact is that Christ said to do good works to get salvation, you cannot deny that. If I repeat this and say that a Christian should try to do good works, how does that mean I dont trust in Jesus. How can you claim that I have no faith in Jesus. A christian will try to do good works because that is what is commanded of him. It would appear that your view is that a Christian demonstrates his faith by doing nothing and believing that Christ will 'save' him whether or not he does good works. The faith of a Christian is demonstrated by his good works. All that we do comes from the power of God. It is possible to do good works and give God the praise that we have the ability to do it.
Anyway, I never said I was a perfect Christian. If you are ... good for you. So try to focus on the subject at hand and resist the temptation to personalise this discussion.
Since you brought up some personal issues, I will share with you some experiences I have had with people claiming to be 'born again' Christians. I have had several employees in the last 2 years. Three of them claimed to be born again Christians and those three have been caught either stealing, lying or other unethical behaviour. Well, I will not be hiring any more 'born again' people. Right now, I am building a house and as I started to dig in order to construct the fence wall, the trenches fill up with dirty water. When I investigated it was my neighbour's septic tank water flowing into my property. My neighbour is a 'born again' Christian. What did he say? "I dont care .. go deal with it". I live in a third world country and the health authority confessed they dont have the power to help except to talk to the guy. Is this what Christians call 'love thy neighbour" ? The fact is, Christians are taught that they get salvation no matter what they do. There are no consequences for doing wrong. They trust in Christ and they are saved. Those are your Christians Epi. Ask around and you will find that my experience with 'born again' Christians is not unique.
I say this in humility, without boasting.
Peace.
Originally posted by twhiteheadWe shall see if you are big enough to admit it when you're wrong. I believe the Bible is filled with allegories, songs, and even fables--NOT to be taken literally. I was completely straightforward and said the same basic things that you just did: people have differing ways of interpreting the Bible--I simply pointed out the method of putting more credence in one verse than another. You ,entioned the ever-popular method of just ignoring Paul outright. There seems to be a lot more of that these days than I had ever dreamed. How does one argue if you have to eliminate "X" number of passages because the debator doesn't like the author's theology? So, I concur with you.
Why not be honest and straight forward and say 'my interpretation of the Bible'? Thats what you mean. The whole reason for the discussion is that different people are interpreting various verses differently or giving different verses different weight. Some are even going to the extent of saying that what Paul said might in fact be wrong. But you are proba ...[text shortened]... mouth of God - but I am sure you cannot give a good argument to back up why you believe that.
My point was simple---like me 😉 I like the verses that don't mention "baptism... saves you". I fall with the "salvation by grace alone" crowd. And I hang me hat on a "once-saved/always-saved" belief system which, as a Lutheran, I understand is NOT a belief my Synod shares. {Oh well, I always said I like my religion to be like a Chinese menu--a little Methodism, a bit of Presbyterian, a pinch from the Baptists and a dash of Luther's catachisms!} You follow a different path. Marvelous!! That won't keep either of us out of heaven. I hope we agree that jesus never said "we are saved by grace and having perfect doctrine." Right?
Originally posted by Rajk999I would disagree. Dead means dead. It doesn't mean unsavable. Or unable to gain salvation. So the faith without works is dead faith. It means the person can be saved--he/she just won't get the accolades and "crowns" that Paul and some others will.
Exceptions, if you think about it, apply to exceptional circumstances. Are you in an exceptional circumstance? Are you hanging from a cross? On your deathbed? In an lifethreatening situation? Or a similarly unusual situation ? Yes? Then I guess you can expect exceptional treatment from Christ. If not, I would be worried if I were you.
By the way that same ...[text shortened]... d'. Dead means hopeless. So marry the 2 ideas and you get :
[b]faith + works = salvation.[/b]
Originally posted by Rajk999This discussion, which you are obviously trying to derail by making personal remarks about me, is about what gives a Christian salvation.
While I would like to think you are one of the faithful and you do good works as well, I am really not interested in your personal faith or behaviour or the harsh words you may have said to others, Epi. So I will not comment on that. This discussion, which you are obviously trying to derail by making personal remarks about me, is about what gives a Christian hristians is not unique.
I say this in humility, without boasting.
Peace.
I'm not trying to derail anything. I'm genuinely concerned about you.
The fact is that Christ said to do good works to get salvation, you cannot deny that.
Indeed, without works faith is dead. So what?
My point is, you cannot have works without faith. This does not contradict Christ's message. What contradicts Christ's message is the notion, which you champion, that salvation depends upon what I can achieve in my own power.
If your employees claim to be Christians, yet unrepentantly lie and steal, then their faith is dead (i.e., as good as 'non-existent'😉. If they had faith, then they would have works. Pure and simple.
But the mere existence of hypocrites does nothing to bolster your case that assurance in Christ is not available.
In fact, the whole book of 1 John is devoted to assuring believers of their salvation. Believers are called to examine themselves and determine whether they are exhibiting signs of Christ-likeness, e.g., self-control, love for each other, acts of charity, holiness, etc. Faith and Christ-likeness should go hand in hand.
Allow me to ask: what produces this Christ-likeness? Is Christ-likeness something I can achieve in my own power? Certainly not! It is God Himself Who produces a Christ-like character in me, according to the same power which raised Christ from the dead.
"Now to Him who is able to do exceedingly abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that works in us..." (Ephesians 3:20).
If I am not exhibiting the signs of Christ-likeness, is it simply a matter of trying harder? No, it's a matter of getting hooked up with God's power, and we do that by believing in the one whom He sent, Jesus.
If God's power is at work in us, then we cannot but bear much fruit! It's not about trying harder, it's about making sure you're abiding in the True Vine. The sap from the Vine (God's power) gives life to the branch and makes the branch fruitful.
Apart from the vine the branch withers. Apart from Christ we can do nothing.
Faith is the key to fruitful living, and fruitful living is the assurance of eternal life. It is a mistake to leave faith out of the equation and claim good works are what save a person, because it is God Who saves.
Anyway, I never said I was a perfect Christian. If you are ... good for you. So try to focus on the subject at hand and resist the temptation to personalise this discussion.
Spare me the indignation. It's not about you being a perfect anything. What I called you on is hypocrisy. You said that I preach "TALK' and not doing," yet you are the one talking and not doing. If you'd rather things not get 'personal', i.e., if you'd rather not have attention drawn to your hypocrisy, then by all means stop being hypocritical. I have no intention of holding anything against you. I've had my moments, too. But if you're going to continue to talk tough and make accusations, then expect to be judged according to your own measure.
So let it go. That is, stop insinuating that I'm an advocate of faith without works.
It would appear that your view is that a Christian demonstrates his faith by doing nothing and believing that Christ will 'save' him whether or not he does good works.
Wrong.
The fact is, Christians are taught that they get salvation no matter what they do.
By the theological 'right' probably, but that does not include all Christians. Have you ever read Dallas Willard's, The Divine Conspiracy? If not, I highly recommend it.
Those are your Christians Epi.
Wrong again.
Originally posted by Rajk999Well that's a fair point. Any good pastor though would have the courage to point out where someone is going astray.
You cant see what I am driving at?
I am not concerned about the 'imposter', but the pastors and preachers and church leaders that LIE to people and tell them that they are saved and their salvation is guaranteed when the truth is that THEY DO NOT KNOW.
It sounds like you can spot a "born again" Christian who is just muttering the words and not walking the walk , you would know the difference wouldn't you? I'm sure there are many church leaders who can't though.
However , even if the whole world was full of corrupt imposters who claim faith and blind pastors it would not prove that salvation by grace was wrong , any more than Stalin's misuse of socialism proves that socialism is wrong.
Originally posted by PinkFloydI have heard all kinds of crazy talk before, but saying that dead = salvation, tops them all.
I would disagree. Dead means dead. It doesn't mean unsavable. Or unable to gain salvation. So the faith without works is dead faith. It means the person can be saved--he/she just won't get the accolades and "crowns" that Paul and some others will.
Epi is Pinky one of yours ? 😀
After all this time, I still see this whole argument (both sides) as being mired in a false dichotomy.
Now, the real formulation seems to be grace/faith on one side and grace/works on the other. In short, I don’t really see anyone here dispensing with grace if you read all their posts. So the argument reduces to whether faith-alone (sola fide) is salvific, or works-alone, or both are necessary for salvation.
A word about “works”: the Greek word is ergon, which can be translated as work, deed, action, task, occupation, undertaking, accomplishment, handiwork, practical expression, effect, the use of a thing, even trouble (as in “to take the trouble” ).
pistis, generally translated as “faith” means confidence or trust. To faith (using it here as a verb, from pisteo) entails a decision to do so. But how does one know that a decision has really been made? By the decision being put into action, ergon. Of course, circumstances may change in any intervening period between deciding to do something and really doing it. In such cases, another decision may be made based on the changed circumstances (or knowledge).
In the case of a decision to faith something or someone, either that decision will be put into action (work, ergon), or some intervening circumstance will cause one to change one’s mind and to not faith, after all—or to hold the decision in abeyance.
Both making a decision and taking an action are something that I do—the decision to faith can be seen as a kind of ergon of the mind. If the power to faith is granted by grace, so may also the power to act that faith in one’s living out of one’s life.
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Below, I have quoted the entire second chapter of the Letter of James. I think James is very straightforward here, and I do not think his straightforwardness can be altered by using, say, Paul to “contextualize” James, simply because Paul was the more prolific writer. Please note the bolded statements, especially the one where James says that “a person is justified by works, and not by faith alone” (verse 24).
—Note that the word “believe” is also used to translate pisteo. This was an adequate, if someone poetic, rendering in the 16th-17th centuries. It is a bit more problematic today, if one takes “believe” to mean what one thinks—which would turn any “faith-righteousness” into a kind of “thought-righteousness”. The most that one can say is that one makes a decision to faith based on one’s beliefs, thoughts, conclusions—or else it would be a random affair. In any event, I think that the word “believe” in these passages ought to be re-read as faith or trust.
Now, to dispense with both faith-as-decision and works/activity as any kind of criteria—in favor, say, of a pure sola gratia—ends up meaning that there are no criteria laid on human beings for salvation. From the human point of view, calls to faith, to justice, to love, to metanoia (see below), etc. are meaningless and salvation is random. Even my “belief” or lack of “belief” cannot be determining of salvation or condemnation. All statements about anyone being condemned because ... are meaningless and absurd, as are any such statements about anyone being justified/saved because ....
I do not think that any kind of chicken-egg argument can be read into James. If works are implied by faith, so faith is implied by works, and one need not ask further. The same can be said for failures of either. Period.
—It is true, of course, that Luther called the Letter of James “the epistle of straw” because he (Luther)—no scriptural dummy—did think that it clearly stood against his new doctrine of sola fide. Hermeneutically, however, I would think that both Paul and James needed to be read through the lens of Jesus’ teachings, and not the other way around.
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A charge that has been laid against the advocates of works is that of, at least implied, perfectionism. That charge, however, could just as well be laid against the advocates of faith—at least as long as faith is recognized as a decision (that is, as long as God is not seen as a puppet-master of the mind; if God is such a puppet-master, then calls to “repent” are absurd, since metanoeo means to change, turn, or transform one’s mind [nous]).
In other words, the faith-advocate can just as well be asked if perfection in faith/trust—without any weaknesses, backsliding, failures, lapses, etc.—is required for salvation. And, if so, whence such perfection? And whatever answers the faith-advocate might choose to give (including bestowal by pure grace), the same answers could really be given by the works-advocate (including bestowal by grace). Absent the test of works/behavior, however, one can certainly attempt to claim perfect faith (even to oneself) without the roots being tested by the fruits, so to speak.
—Note that both the Hebrew and Greek words translated as “perfection” may really mean maturity, or wholeness, or ripeness—as opposed to, say, absence of all error or failure.
If perfection is required—can one’s faith be (made) perfect without one’s works also being (made) perfect? Can one’s works be (made) perfect without one’s faith also being (made) perfect?
Therefore, just as I think the whole faith-versus-works argument sets up a false dichotomy (like asking which blade of the shears actually cuts the branches), I think the charge of perfectionism laid by one side against the other sets up a strawman.
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NRS James 2:1 My brothers and sisters, do you with your acts of favoritism really believe in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ? 2 For if a person with gold rings and in fine clothes comes into your assembly, and if a poor person in dirty clothes also comes in, 3 and if you take notice of the one wearing the fine clothes and say, "Have a seat here, please," while to the one who is poor you say, "Stand there," or, "Sit at my feet," 4 have you not made distinctions among yourselves, and become judges with evil thoughts?
5 Listen, my beloved brothers and sisters. Has not God chosen the poor in the world to be rich in faith and to be heirs of the kingdom that he has promised to those who love him? 6 But you have dishonored the poor. Is it not the rich who oppress you? Is it not they who drag you into court? 7 Is it not they who blaspheme the excellent name that was invoked over you? 8 You do well if you really fulfill the royal law according to the scripture, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." 9 But if you show partiality, you commit sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors.
10 For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it. 11 For the one who said, "You shall not commit adultery," also said, "You shall not murder." Now if you do not commit adultery but if you murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty.
13 For judgment will be without mercy to anyone who has shown no mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment.
14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if you say you have faith but do not have works? Can faith save you?
—I think it is clear from the whole presentation that James’ answer is a clear, “No!”
15 If a brother or sister is naked and lacks daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, "Go in peace; keep warm and eat your fill," and yet you do not supply their bodily needs, what is the good of that?
17 So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead.
—Although I think that PinkFloyd has a valid point about this statement, I also think it would be absurd to say that a “dead” faith is nevertheless a salvific faith. As he said: Dead means dead.
18 But someone will say, "You have faith and I have works." Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith.
—No one can demonstrate their faith apart from works. One can demonstrate one’s faith by one’s works, without words or proclamations at all. Here again, I insist that faith does not mean “thinking right”, or holding the right conceptualizations or doctrines. Or, at the very least, that any such thinking/conceptualization is itself an activity/work of the mind.
19 You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe-- and shudder. 20 Do you want to be shown, you senseless person, that faith apart from works is barren? 21 Was not our ancestor Abraham justified by works when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was brought to completion by the works. 23 Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness," and he was called the friend of God.
—Here, James really shatters any faith(/belief) and works dichotomy. “Abraham ‘believed’ [trusted, faithed], and it was reckoned to him...”; “Was not our ancestor Abraham justified by works...?” Again, James’ answer is clear in the rhetorical nature of the question.
24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
25 Likewise, was not Rahab the prostitute also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by another road? 26 For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is also dead.
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One can certainly reach outside of scripture to tradition—Luther’s, and later Protestants’, tradition or earlier church tradition—to argue one or the other side of this. That is a different kind of argument. EDIT: continued...