hitler in heaven - a test

Originally posted by LemonJello
You were telling lies as soon as you came out of the womb? You must have developed quickly. All I did was pee on the nurse when I came out.

[b]It don't matter what the Lord has made nor if he wants to burn it. It is HIS creation and the thing that is made has no right to say that he is unjust for creating something just to burn it.

So it's per ...[text shortened]... he wants with us? It is permissible for him to torture babies if that is what he wants to do?[/b]

Psa 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

The wicked are those who are not of the Lord. When I was born I was not of the Lord and thus was wicked.

Originally posted by SwissGambit
A being who is the embodiment of love is capable of hatred? Yeah, right.

A man who is truly committed to love , justice and truth will hate evil , injustice and lies. Why would God not hate anything which is vile , abusive , dishonourable , manipulative , unjust and full of lies? Do you love evil or hate it? I can think of many contexts where it is absolutely appropriate that a being that embodies love would hate something that is not love. Love is not some squishy wishy feeling in God , it's a holy fire of righteousness.

Your view of what love is in God is impoverished. If God loved lies and injustice would you think more of his love? Please try and think before you post , you sell yourself short by your knee jerk reactions.

Originally posted by knightmeister
A man who is truly committed to love , justice and truth will hate evil , injustice and lies. Why would God not hate anything which is vile , abusive , dishonourable , manipulative , unjust and full of lies? Do you love evil or hate it? I can think of many contexts where it is absolutely appropriate that a being that embodies love would hate somethi ...[text shortened]... ve? Please try and think before you post , you sell yourself short by your knee jerk reactions.

Why did God hate Esau, the person?

Originally posted by SwissGambit
Why did God hate Esau, the person?

Answer my question first.

Originally posted by knightmeister
Answer my question first.

You butted in on my discussion with PB about Esau; either play ball or go home.

Originally posted by SwissGambit
You butted in on my discussion with PB about Esau; either play ball or go home.

Your post was in response to knightmeister that is why he responded to you.

Many would say that he hated Esau because Esau sold his birth right to Jacob, however, the verse in Romans states that before he did any good or evil the Lord hated him.

Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
Rom 9:9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son.
Rom 9:10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; )
Rom 9:12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

According to this, He hated Esau not because of anything he has done. It was so the purpose of God according to election micht stand, not of works, but of him that calleth.

Originally posted by pritybetta
Have you ever made something and decided that you hated something about it? It is the same way with the Lord.We are his creation, if he wants to hate part of it he can and he is just to do so because HE was the creator.

If we hate another due to our own feelings or to be accepted by others it is unjust. If we hate another because he/she hates the Lord then it is just. They are enemies of the Lord.

I am just trying to get a straight answer to my question. It seems here you have identified what you think are two ways one can justly hate another: (1) if you create something, then any hate you may subsequently have for this something is thereby just and (2) any hate you have for someone who in turn hates the lord is just.

Is this an accurate summary? Does this exhaust the ways in which you think hate can be just? Also, do you have any reasons why anyone should take this seriously?

Also, this is a question the answer to which could have interesting implications when coupled with (2) above: do you think it is conceivable that god could demonstrate self-hatred?

Originally posted by pritybetta
Psa 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

The wicked are those who are not of the Lord. When I was born I was not of the Lord and thus was wicked.

The wicked are those who are not of the Lord. When I was born I was not of the Lord and thus was wicked.

I don't get it. What does it mean to say that someone is "not of the Lord"?

And anyway, aren't you just being silly? Don't you think that "wickedness" would concern mainly one's agency and those things that inform their deliberations when they act from reason -- like their character traits, dispositions, motivations, etc? Do you really think a newborn who just popped out of the womb is capable of that kind of agency? Do you really think it is capable of "wickedness"?

You asked before about babies crying for nothing. Generally, no, newborns don't cry for no reason. Don't you realize that babies have limited means of communicating when they need something or feel discomfort? Do you honestly believe that their crying is a demonstration of their "wickedness" that is just there to irritate you?

Originally posted by pritybetta
Psa 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

That's pretty impressive!

Originally posted by pritybetta
We are all born in sin, we lie as soon as we come out of the womb. Have you ever herd a baby cry for nothing? It don't matter what the Lord has made nor if he wants to burn it. It is [b]HIS creation and the thing that is made has no right to say that he is unjust for creating something just to burn it.[/b]

You mean if you were able to create a sentient being, it would be moral for you to do with it whatever you wanted, including any kind of cruelty? I would think that being the creator would give you more responsibility, not less, as you would be the one responsible for the being's existence and ability to feel (and ultimately for its faults).

Originally posted by LemonJello
[b]The wicked are those who are not of the Lord. When I was born I was not of the Lord and thus was wicked.

I don't get it. What does it mean to say that someone is "not of the Lord"?

And anyway, aren't you just being silly? Don't you think that "wickedness" would concern mainly one's agency and those things that inform their deliberations whe ...[text shortened]... rying is a demonstration of their "wickedness" that is just there to irritate you?[/b]

Not of the Lord means those who are not saved.

Ones agency? Are you saying that a person is not resposable for their acctions instead it is their 'agency'?

You said 'Generally, no, newborns don't cry for no reason." That is just it. Generally they don't but they do at times. And yes, I know they have limmited means of communication, I believe I know more about babies than you do seeing as I have had three and babysat plenty more. I do believe that some of their crying is due to their wickedness. Wanting is a sin, the Bible says we are not to want, therefore, when a baby cries just to be held they are sinning.

Originally posted by pritybetta
Not of the Lord means those who are not saved.

Ones agency? Are you saying that a person is not resposable for their acctions instead it is their 'agency'?

You said 'Generally, no, newborns don't cry for no reason." That is just it. Generally they don't but they do at times. And yes, I know they have limmited means of communication, I believe I kno ...[text shortened]... le says we are not to want, therefore, when a baby cries just to be held they are sinning.

Wanting anything is a sin? Where does anything in the Bible say it is wicked or sinful to want anything? Do you want eternal life with God, as you understand that, or are you indifferent to it? Do/did you want your children to grow up healthy and strong, or are you indifferent to it?

The fact that a baby wants not to feel the pain of severe diaper rash anymore (for example) is a sign of wickedness? (And I do have experience changing diapers and such!) As LJ points out, the neurology for being able to express wants intelligibly (linguistically) is something that develops a pretty good bit after birth (beginning between 12 and 18 months on average?); the fact that a parent (or anyone else) cannot figure out why the baby is crying does not mean that there isn’t a reason.

Not your most well-thought-out post, PB. 🙂

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You know, just about every perspective of humankind on humankind can be found in the Bible. A great deal of how we read it depends on which parts we use to contextualize which other parts. Christians necessarily (and this is not a criticism) use the NT to contextualize the OT.

Also, many times one confronts poetic hyperbole in the Bible; and I suspect that the verse quoted from Psalm 58 just fits that bill.

Originally posted by pritybetta
Wanting is a sin, the Bible says we are not to want, therefore, when a baby cries just to be held they are sinning.

Wow. It is wicked of a baby to communicate in order to have its basic needs (which include human contact) met? Sounds like a baby without sin would die quickly, as the parents would have a hard time figuring out what it needs.

Originally posted by pritybetta
Not of the Lord means those who are not saved.

Ones agency? Are you saying that a person is not resposable for their acctions instead it is their 'agency'?

You said 'Generally, no, newborns don't cry for no reason." That is just it. Generally they don't but they do at times. And yes, I know they have limmited means of communication, I believe I kno ...[text shortened]... le says we are not to want, therefore, when a baby cries just to be held they are sinning.

Are you saying that a person is not resposable for their acctions instead it is their 'agency'?

No. What I mean is that when we say someone is "wicked" we make an implicit assumption that they possess moral agency because we are really pointing to what we think are moral failings regarding the motivational/evaluative sets that have the support of their reason and guide their actions. But a newborn (let's say a neonate) simply is not a moral agent. When you state that something like a neonate is "wicked" you are simply projecting agency where there is none. My point is that you have no good reasons for claiming that something like a neonate is capable of displaying wickedness.

I do believe that some of their crying is due to their wickedness.

But you haven't demonstrated how they are even capable of wickedness. In what could their wickedness possibly consist?

Wanting is a sin, the Bible says we are not to want, therefore, when a baby cries just to be held they are sinning.

Nonsense.

Originally posted by vistesd
Wanting anything is a sin? Where does anything in the Bible say it is wicked or sinful to want anything? Do you want eternal life with God, as you understand that, or are you indifferent to it? Do/did you want your children to grow up healthy and strong, or are you indifferent to it?

The fact that a baby wants not to feel the pain of s ...[text shortened]... hyperbole in the Bible; and I suspect that the verse quoted from Psalm 58 just fits that bill.

I pray that I will have eternal life with God, but if it is his will that I am not then what does 'wanting' it do for me? It is selfish to 'want' something for myself. I pray that my children grow up healthy and strong, however, if they don't then it is God's will that they (and I) learn something from it. It is not wanting something for myself and I wouldn't be humbled if I were to want for myself. I guess I didn't explain what I ment by 'wanting'.

I never said that a baby crying for a need is wickedness. And if you are going by Children's Psychology(which is a class I took in college), babies do develop the neurology for being able to express wants long before 12 months. My girls 'wanted' to be held after 3. They would cry and cry untill someone picked them up and as soon as they were picked up they quit. Nothing else would keep them from crying. They also 'wanted' music played as soon as a few days old because I would play music all the time when I was pregnant with them. They would cry but stop as soon as the music was put on.

The verse from Psalm 58:3 tells us that we are all born wicked. Psalm 58 is to the congregation, and the second verse states that in their hearts they (the congregation) work wickedness. Then it goes to explain what the wicked does. What I gather in Psalm 58 is that 'the wicked' is the natural man that we are born as. The Lord has to break their teeth (or cause the natural man to die) in order for the wicked to pass away so that we can walk upright in the Spirit as new men (born of the spirit).