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I came out of the moral relative era of the 1960s.
"What's good to you is good for you."
When I turned to the Lord Jesus this verse was brought to my attention and it nearly shocked me. It still holds for me an awesome response.
"But we know that the judgment of God is according to truth . . . " (See Rom. 2:2a)
"According to TRUTH ?!?" How could there be an ultimate truth and some last judgment according to an ultimate truth?
Now, I do not encourage anyone who thinks he can take comfort that it is impossible for there to be a final bar of truth against which all mankind is judged by God.
You may very well be able to point to some flow chart and derive from me a "I just don't know that" at some junction of this imagined theological flow diagragm.
Look at the One who spoke rather, and assume with Abraham "Shall the Judge of all the earth not do not do justly?" (Genesis 18:25)
The Judge of all the earth Who is also the Savior of the world will surely do justly. And His judgment will be "according to truth".
Place no hope in God's inanability becausse His omniscience will fail.
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The matter of logical flaws is pretty much moot to people who don't believe eternal torture is real. The matter of logical flaws is simply one type of bread and butter for a debate and discussion forum.
The "eternal" is used in relation to "life".
And the "eternal" is used in relation to "punishment".
There is no good reason to hold that for "life" eternal will hold out and apply while concerning "punishment" it will not.
"And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." (Matt. 25:46)
Various mechanisms have been employed to try to furnish bases for "eternal" not possibly to be for punishment. None are reliable imo.
Ie.
1.) Say the punishment is "torture."
2.) Refer to "billions and billions" in torture.
3.) Refer to Jesus looking on with enjoyment forever sadistically.
4.) Argue that His words about who we should rightly fear, mean the opposite of
what is obvious.
5.) Argue that whatever punishment would be eternal nullifies completely the character of God. Any eternal punishment totally enchroaces on the dignity and goodness of God.
6.) Any eternal punishment has no reforming or corrective value. What is the point?
7.) Any "eternal punishment" insists that the punished is not dead but alive.
8.) Any "eternal punishment" renders the believer in such words morally bankrupt.
9.) Any talk of "eternal punishment" makes it appear one can speak of nothing else.
10.) Speaking of the matter makes one look creepy and cultish.
None of these reasons should be ground for hope that what Christ spoke will be too problematic in some way for Him to follow through on.
"Truly, truly, I say to you, He who hears My word and believes Him who sent Me has eternal life, and does not come into judgment but has passed out of death into life." (John 5:25)
Hope should be placed in His faithfulness to SAVE by believing into Him.
Hope should not be placed in any of the above rationales to make it impossible for an omiscient Almighty God to judge the world according to truth.
@sonship saidNone of this wall of text, some of which seemed to be addressed to your fellow follower of Jesus, divegeester, alters the moral incoherence of burning non-believers in flames for eternity. Blimey, you absolutely LOVE talking about ulyour your torturer god ideology.
@FMF
The matter of logical flaws is pretty much moot to people who don't believe eternal torture is real. The matter of logical flaws is simply one type of bread and butter for a debate and discussion forum.
The "eternal" is used in relation to "life".
And the "eternal" is used in relation to "punishment".
There is no go ...[text shortened]... ationales to make it impossible for an omiscient Almighty God to judge the world according to truth.
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None of this wall of text, some of which seemed to be addressed to your fellow follower of Jesus, divegeester, alters the moral incoherence of burning non-believers in flames for eternity. Blimey, you absolutely LOVE takling about ulyour your torturer god ideology.
Whether written on a wall or somewhere else, none of those reason will render IMPOSSIBLE for God to emply His omniscience, omnipresence, and Omnipotence to judge the world.
Ie.
11.) Insisting any eternal punishment of necessity stains the character of God - is a hope not reliable.
12.) All fellow followers of Jesus are not in complete agreement about details of a last judgment - is not a hope that is reliable.
13.) To our limitation of knowledge, all the facts, all the circumstances, and all the human situations of all kinds will render the belief incoherent - is not a reliable hope.
14.) The very physics of the matter is unscientific - is not a reliable hope.
15.) To speak of it occasions others to claim you can speak of nothing else - is not reliable.
16.) To portay one defending his belief in what the Bible said about this causes one to appear thst he LOVES to speak about nothing else - is not reliable.
17.) Because a doctrine has been on occasioned damaged someone's over sensative conscience of been a tool of munipulation MAY be a factor in God's judgment - yet it is not in itself capable or making it impossible for Him to conduct a last judgment.
Hope should not be placed in theological or psychological or ethical problems.
Hope should be placed in the faithfulness of the One Who said He is the Savior.
"For this is My blood of the covenant, which is being poured out for many for forgiveness of sins." (Matt. 26:28)
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And one should believe the words of His apostles, ie. Peter.
"Therefore let it be known to you, men, brothers, that through this One forgiveness of sins is announced to you;
And from all the things from which you were not able to be justified by the law of Moses, in this One everyone who believes is justified." (Acts 13:38,39)
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you absolutely LOVE takling about ulyour your torturer god ideology.
I am surely speaking to you now.
No, what I actually love to speak about is salvation FROM departing to the place prepared for the devil and his angels . . . and its reliability and trustworthiness / RATHER than clinging to the hope that debating Christians will prove that God too will be debated out of fulfilling His assurance to us that there will be a last judgment.
@sonship saidOh, I'm clinging to the hope that debating Christians will prove that God too will be debated out of fulfilling His assurance to us that there will be a last judgment, am I?
@FMF
you absolutely LOVE takling about ulyour your torturer god ideology.
I am surely speaking to you now.
No, what I actually love to speak about is salvation FROM departing to the place prepared for the devil and his angels . . . and its reliability and trustworthiness / RATHER than clinging to the hope that debating Christians will pro ...[text shortened]... at God too will be debated out of fulfilling His assurance to us that there will be a last judgment.
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To anyone:
I admit that I use to think that circular reasoning would make nonsense out of the possibility of salvation from Jesus Christ from eternal perdition.
for awhile I wondered . . . "Now wait aminute. Saved from WHAT? Saved from not being dsaved? Saved from condemnation for not being a believer? Exactly what is the saving from? They have a point there."
Eventually, I came to this kind of conclusion:
The Bible is written in such a way that the need to be justified before God is critical PERIOD .
"What are the circumstances if I am NOT justified before God?"
This question is not to my realization at least exhaustively explained.
It is as if the word of God would say "That is not important. What is critical is that all men need to be justified before God."
It seems to me ( and maybe I could be corrected or change my mind someday) that I see that to BE reconciled to God is of topmost importance.
"What happens if I am NOT reconciled to God?"
Above this Bible speaking to this as the most critical thing, it is written so that TO BE reconciled to God is more [most] important. Rather than have humans speculate on what are the ways one can NOT be reconciled to God, God would have our consciousness that reconcilation to God is a must PERIOD.
"We on behalf of Christ then we are ambassadors, as God entreats you through us; we beseech you on behalf of Christ, Be reconciled to God.
Him who did not know sin He made sin on our bejalf that we might become the righteouosness of God in HIm."
Second Corinthians 5:19 -
Amplified Bible
that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting people’s sins against them [but canceling them]. And He has committed to us the message of reconciliation [that is, restoration to favor with God].
Christian Standard Bible
That is, in Christ, God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and he has committed the message of reconciliation to us.
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@FMF
No need for me to know exhaustively about Nagal.
What he SAID was the only matter of importance to your challenge.
I am sure he said and did other things.
And in the past I read more which I may not remember right now.
@sonship saidThe bottom line sonship, is that your version of Jesus will be in hell personally overseeing the eternal torture of billions of people who didn’t believe he was who he said he was, which was only written in a collection of ancient religious texts gathered together by people hundred and even thousands of years ago.
To anyone:
I admit that I use to think that circular reasoning would make nonsense out of the possibility of salvation from Jesus Christ from eternal perdition.
for awhile I wondered . . . [i] "Now wait aminute. Saved from WHAT? Saved from not being dsaved? Saved from condemnation for not being a believer? Exactly what is the saving from? They have a point ther ...[text shortened]... ot counting their trespasses against them, and he has committed the message of reconciliation to us.
Of course your version of Jesus will be doing that torture in a place he has personally conceived and created for the sole purpose of torturing billions of people for eternity and he’ll be doing that [allegedly ] because he can’t help himself get past his own wrath and desire for vengeance.
Meanwhile Christians are simultaneously preaching that this SAME version of Jesus actually loves everyone, whom he will be torturing, SO much that he came and died for them. But he will still be torturing them for eternity if they don’t believe that.
It’s bizarre medieval nonsense and it is the main reason that the gospel is failing. And you and kellyjay are propagating it’s failure.
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@FMF
It seems thast anyone who reads the OP is caught in its audience.
I am always confident that the word of God will not return void.
It will accomplish something in the heart of those who hear.
Don't try to play with me FMF.
Point:
Look at the universe.
Look at Jesus Christ.
Look at the track record of God judging throughout the history told us in the
Bible.
He knew the count of people in Ninevah who should be special cases - the exact count. He knows the number of each hair on our heads.
Look at the desperation of Jesus to fulfill His mission that He save His people from their sins.
There is no chance that it will be too much of a difficult task morally, scientifically, ethically, or any OTHER wise that God cannot judge the world in rigjhteousness.
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Readers, debaters, or "neutral" observers:
Your best bet is to realize that God is good at being God.
Fortunately He is good at being also "our Savior God".
You may say to me - "You just love to write about damnation."
No, actually, I love to write about Our Savior God.
There is no other name given among men by which we must be saved.
Don't say that that cannot be.
It is better to believe that with God all things are possible and He has told us.
He has demonstrated His will to save the world whether we think we can locate
kinks in some flowchart or not.