Originally posted by Proper KnobThis is accomplished through the Holy Spirit. We're infused with this as a gift from God upon becoming a Christian. And yeah, I know what that sounds like to you... that sounds like another way to say "uhhhh, I don't know". (This is really a whole other conversation. Cue robbie to come in here now and give me some derision, surprised he hasn't already made an appearance.)
So how does one discern between 'Real Faith' and, I guess, 'Fake Faith'?
Edit: verb tense and trying not to sound like English isn't my native language.
12 Dec 13
Originally posted by SuzianneYou read my mind. Looks like nothing more than prime case of 'theo-lodge-a-babble' to me. 🙂
This is accomplishing through the Holy Spirit. We're infused with this as a gift from God upon becoming a Christian. And yeah, I know what that sounds like to you... that sounds like another way to say "uhhhh, I don't know". (This is really a whole other conversation. Cue robbie to come in here now and give me some derision, surprised he hasn't already made an appearance.)
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12 Dec 13
Originally posted by SuzianneWell I am objecting to what it is you are doing and not what you call what it is you are doing.
1. Relaxing the grip. Nope.
2. Naysay the concept. Check.
3. Blow it off completely. Check.
4. Thinking twice about the idea. Nope.
😞
And as ever I'm going to need a VERY convincing argument for changing my mind about faith
[believing in things without evidence or evidence to the contrary] and "because you say so"
doesn't qualify.
So far the only 'reason' you have provided for belief based on faith is that you don't like the
consequences of not believing based on faith.
You think that without faith, you can't justify belief in your god, and without that you see
no purpose or point to the universe which you don't like.
And therefore you claim that faith is justified so that you can believe something that makes
you happy.
That is about the sum totality of the actual reasons you have given for why I should believe
based on faith.
I don't even find a universe without a 'god given' purpose to be troubling so why WOULD I
find your 'argument' convincing?
Do you have ANY other arguments for why I should accept faith [belief without evidence or
despite of it] as a valid, justified, and rational method of forming beliefs?
Other than just "because you say so".
12 Dec 13
1 edit
Originally posted by googlefudge
This is a very common view among theists that atheists are (even just subconsciously) 'rejecting'
gods offer for some perverse reason of our own. Often because they think we want to go around sinning
and want an excuse to do so.
And it just bares no relation to reality.
It also implies we are all lying when we tell you our reasons for being ath ...[text shortened]... n every day life.
So, why not just trust us when we tell you what it is we think and why?
This is a very common view among theists that atheists are (even just subconsciously) 'rejecting' gods offer for some perverse reason of our own. Often because they think we want to go around sinning and want an excuse to do so.When I started this convo, there was no 'perverse reason' of my own, I just wanted to explore this idea of there being maybe a 'God-given' reticence towards actually doing the action of 'rejection', even among a group known for their unbelief of God, a reticence unknown even to that group themselves. This hypothesis has not even been entirely disproven to my satisfaction yet.
And it just bares no relation to reality.
It also implies we are all lying when we tell you our reasons for being atheists and not having a belief in gods.
But let me be perfectly clear. It does NOT mean that I think you're all 'lying' about your reasons for being atheists. I'm talking about a supposed deep non-response trigger in the subconscious or even the unconscious. It's just a theory. This is why my questions explored the motivations of atheists, not to mention just satisfying my own innate curiosity of the subject. To dig any deeper, though, down where the rubber meets the road, so to speak, would require more experimentation regarding dream states and such, so I never really had any expectation of uncovering any real 'truth' to my theory, but the conversation was still highly interesting in its own right.
AND crucially... It's an incredibly Christian/monotheistic centric view of atheism.Of course, but as I've told you before, I understand *Christian* theology, and so I must drag any opposing view through that prism. When I speak of God, I'm only speaking of the only God I know, the God of Abraham, the God of the Bible. I really have no interest in any other gods (and thus your reaction to them), because to me they do not exist. "... incredibly Christian/monotheistic centric view..." Yes. It's the only view I have.
Look at it from the atheist perspective... We don't believe in ANY gods and their respective afterlives.
I lack belief in god's I haven't even heard of, from religions long dead, or in far flung parts of the world.
Why do you think we keep correcting god to gods?
Christianity has no special place or treatment in or from atheism.
It features so often not because WE treat it differently but YOU do, all you Christians here, and we meet in every day life.
So, why not just trust us when we tell you what it is we think and why?I think I do. I get that atheists have in the past felt pre-judged or mistrusted. I felt that way (pre-judging and mistrusting) when I first came to this forum. I think over the last few years, we've all made strides in understanding the other side more so than before. You have to understand, all my college work was toward a degree in psychology, so that is what I know. I understand there are inner motivations to all people, motivations they themselves may not be aware of. I've learned a lot from this forum, mainly through conversations exactly like the one we had today, and these conversations haven't always been as well-behaved and pleasant. I do wish to thank everyone who took part and commented, every little bit adds to the working knowledge of everyone concerned, whether they may want to admit it or not. 😉
12 Dec 13
Originally posted by SuzianneEdit: "And yes, I AM concerned with 'why'."
I'm (maybe) grasping at things we might have in common. It's hard for me to grasp believing in nothing. It seems dull and a one way ticket to nowhere. There has to be more to this whole life thing than as an exercise in futility.
I've said before, regarding the universe, that science is the how and religion is the why. And yes, I AM concerned with 'w ...[text shortened]... the 'why'. Atheists say there is no 'why', and that just sounds like the ultimate bummer to me.
There is no "because"😵
12 Dec 13
Originally posted by googlefudgeActually, I'm not trying to change your mind. I do not believe I have the power to do so, just as you do not have the power to change my mind. If you recall, the majority of my posts in this thread have been asking you about your motivations and trying to explain my views vis a vis your views. And 'explaining' is not 'trying to convince' you of the desirability of my view versus your view.
Well I am objecting to what it is you are doing and not what you call what it is you are doing.
And as ever I'm going to need a VERY convincing argument for changing my mind about faith
[believing in things without evidence or evidence to the contrary] and "because you say so"
doesn't qualify.
So far the only 'reason' you have provided for bel ...[text shortened]... lid, justified, and rational method of forming beliefs?
Other than just "because you say so".
We were just having a conversation. Isn't that good enough? And I was asking honest questions trying to understand your view. I think that's probably a lot better than what you get from a lot of theists in here.
No 'arguments'. No 'proselytizing'. But if you're going to push your views as the 'truth', I'll do some pushing of my own. No acrimony there, though. No 'convincing'. I'm an adult, I think we're a little bit beyond the 'convincing' and 'trying to convert' stage, don't you?
12 Dec 13
Originally posted by Great King RatOf course. I have read with interest the works of people like Matthew Alper, who wrote "The 'God' Part of the Brain". I may not agree, but the topic is interesting to my 'psychology' part of my brain. 😉
Do you reckon that theists may also have inner motivations for believing that they may not be aware of?
12 Dec 13
So can you offer a scientific (or at least semi-professional) viewpoint as to how and why theists or atheist would have more or less "inner motivations".
It's an interesting subject but I know nothing about it.
No need to write about it now, but I'd be interested if you could expand on it in the future.
12 Dec 13
Originally posted by Grampy Bobby* knock knock*
[b]Human Options at A Glance
#1. God: O "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten [uniquely born] Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world; but that the world should be saved through Him. He who believes in Him is not j ...[text shortened]... believe in] the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." John 3:36[/b]
"Who is it?"
"God botherer."
"We don't need any."
Originally posted by SuzianneYou really find it so difficult to accept that one may lack belief in a thing solely on account of a lack of compelling evidence?
[quote]This is a very common view among theists that atheists are (even just subconsciously) 'rejecting' gods offer for some perverse reason of our own. Often because they think we want to go around sinning and want an excuse to do so.
And it just bares no relation to reality.
It also implies we are all lying when we tell you our reasons for being ath ...[text shortened]... dds to the working knowledge of everyone concerned, whether they may want to admit it or not. 😉
12 Dec 13
Originally posted by Great King RatOff the top of my head, I'd say upbringing. A *lot* of it is cultural, despite a few people who want to call that "racist" or "ethnic". People tend to stick with 'what they know' already. And the 'comfort zone' factor is big. As I said, I do not remember a time when I did not 'believe in God' even as a child. Perhaps I do have an abnormally large 'God' part of the brain. But as the child is exposed, there he/she follows throughout life. My parents both were church-going Christians (even though my father had his 'unholy' moments in his past, mostly in the military, he repented of his sins on his deathbed, at my urging), so that is what informs my belief. I think most people are the same way. Their childhood memories are what forms their belief systems for a large part. This is something we cannot easily excise.
So can you offer a scientific (or at least semi-professional) viewpoint as to how and why theists or atheist would have more or less "inner motivations".
It's an interesting subject but I know nothing about it.
No need to write about it now, but I'd be interested if you could expand on it in the future.
What I'm trying to explore is some kind of 'special' (i.e. species-focused) need for God (kind of like the 'God' part of the brain, only put there *by* God). In the process I am learning of another, seemingly equal "dis-attraction" to God, perhaps innate, perhaps not. Part of my 'wonder' cycle is do all people have this, to lesser or greater degree, or is this only developed by 'some' people over others? And then there's the question of is this a physical thing, or only an intellectual thing 'learned' by the individual? Of *course* this is all speculation, but it's the type of thing I wonder about when I'm lazing around the house on a Saturday afternoon.
Of course, my ideas are also affected by *my* upbringing, and so I tend to lean towards the idea that humans' natural state is towards God and so therefore the motion away from God is an aberration of some kind. Perhaps caused by sin? Or maybe ancestral sin, affecting whole clans? Or is there something deeper afoot, perhaps demon activity? I admit I haven't entertained many notions of God being just a brain activity meant to soothe us from fear of death or similar.
One thing I keep telling myself is that more schooling is probably necessary. 🙂
12 Dec 13
Originally posted by SoothfastPlenty of people believe in God anyways.
You really find it so difficult to accept that one may lack belief in a thing solely on account of a lack of compelling evidence?
I have wonder about many kinds of human behavior. I find God to be interesting because it is something beyond ourselves. Why do some need it and others don't?
Of course, since I do believe, that tends to color my beliefs, but there are still plenty who are doing interesting work on the subject despite which way they 'lean'.
And the world is full of things people believe in despite a lack of evidence. A lack of evidence doesn't speak much as to its likelihood. Especially God, since I don't believe there can *be* any proof of God, no matter how much we may wish it, perhaps because we wish it. (Meaning I believe the ones most in need of proof will never get that proof, simply because they're in an unrepentant state.) Lightning strikes thousands of places on earth every minute, yet the likelihood of any one place getting struck is miniscule.
As to what people believe (or don't believe), I don't find any of it so 'difficult to accept'. People play the lottery every week, despite the odds being astronomical. People think their NFL team will win this week if they wear their 'lucky jersey'. If it works for them, who am I to say it's wrong?