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12 Dec 13
Originally posted by FreakyKBHnope, i wasnt suggesting that at all. i was explaining what the small amount of religion i had meant to me and jesus was in the same box as santa. my reason for mentioning this was not to suggest that christians are stupid or childish. it was to highlight to suzianne that there was never really a question of rejecting god in meaning full way as god was never more than a mythical character to me and i presume many atheists who were raised around christianity had similar thoughts...
Gee, that almost sounds as though you're saying anyone who believes is either naive or nuts.
But I know you wouldn't suggest the lack of rationality as a factor, given the overwhelming majority of people who view the same information and come to a completely different conclusion than you do. Doing so would be either naive or nuts.
although if im going to be totally honest..........i do think christians are all a little nuts, mainly in a nice fun crazy way, not in a mental hospital kinda way. i dont see how the quantity of religious people helps what you are saying. if anything the quantity and variety of beliefs just shows that the majority are deluded as only one religion can be the truth.
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12 Dec 13
Originally posted by Suzianneoh bugger, we've all been on suziannes couch boys!!! she's been inside our heads, poking around.......did i say anything about my mother????? i dont think so, phew...lovely lady, never touched her apron strings...honest!!!
Off the top of my head, I'd say upbringing. A *lot* of it is cultural, despite a few people who want to call that "racist" or "ethnic". People tend to stick with 'what they know' already. And the 'comfort zone' factor is big. As I said, I do not remember a time when I did not 'believe in God' even as a child. Perhaps I do have an abnormally large 'God' ...[text shortened]... or similar.
One thing I keep telling myself is that more schooling is probably necessary. 🙂
i was enjoying your post, it was interesting to go down the psychology route, until you started going on about demon activity!!!! cmon!!!! demon activity!!! who was your psychology professor rupert giles....are you buffy the vampire slayer????
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12 Dec 13
Originally posted by SuzianneWhich god?
Plenty of people believe in God anyways.
I have wonder about many kinds of human behavior. I find God to be interesting because it is something beyond ourselves. Why do some need it and others don't?
Of course, since I do believe, that tends to color my beliefs, but there are still plenty who are doing interesting work on the subject despite which w ...[text shortened]... this week if they wear their 'lucky jersey'. If it works for them, who am I to say it's wrong?
Monotheism, which itself has different versions of a singular god, only makes up
about 55% of believers world wide. [numbers from wiki]
The rest believe in no gods or many gods.
If you want to look at whether people have inate inclinations to believe in gods you
need to consider the fact that only around half of people in the world today believe
in a singular god (and can't agree on which one or what it's like) and the other half
have wildly varying beliefs ranging from zero to many gods.
You should also look at the fact that monotheism is pre-dated by polytheism which is
itself very likely pre-dated by some form of spiritualism (gods/spirits in everything).
To me it doesn't look anything like I would expect it to look if their was a built in preference
for believing in a singular god.
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12 Dec 13
Originally posted by stellspalfieYeah, I have to admit that is what gets me about Suzianne.
oh bugger, we've all been on suziannes couch boys!!! she's been inside our heads, poking around.......did i say anything about my mother????? i dont think so, phew...lovely lady, never touched her apron strings...honest!!!
i was enjoying your post, it was interesting to go down the psychology route, until you started going on about demon activity!!!! ...[text shortened]... tivity!!! who was your psychology professor rupert giles....are you buffy the vampire slayer????
She will talk nicely and normally (and intelligently) about something...
And then mention demons or the apocalypse just as normally.
It's frightening and weird what faith does to a mind.
Also, I'm not sure Buffy lived in a Christian universe...
While there are demons and gods (plural) and there are afterlives (including ones
nice enough to be referred to as heavens) they pretty definitively rule out
Christianity... Even though vampires dislike crosses.
For example the fact that there are MULTIPLE gods kinda rules out monotheism
of any kind...
Also in the Buffy universe the world specifically didn't start out as a paradise,
but as a hell, from which the demons were banished, and to which they long to
return...
So whatever's inspiring her... Don't think it's Buffy, or giles...
😉 😛
12 Dec 13
Originally posted by Proper Knob"So how does one discern between 'Real Faith' and, I guess, 'Fake Faith'?" Proper Knob
You read my mind. Looks like nothing more than prime case of 'theo-lodge-a-babble' to me. 🙂
Hi, PK. If you're still interested in the applicable facts blurred by this distinction without a difference, I'll provide them.
Some people may reach a point where they can't believe or change their mind about Christ ( as may be evident in some of the posters here ) their continued negative volition has built up so much scar tissue on their souls that they are unable to respond to the gospel. The pharaoh of the exodus is a perfect example. In Matthew 10:14 we are told to ....." If they will not hear your words leave them and shake the dust of their dwelling place from off your feet".
12 Dec 13
Originally posted by stellspalfielol... no, that was "psychology meets religion", or something...
oh bugger, we've all been on suziannes couch boys!!! she's been inside our heads, poking around.......did i say anything about my mother????? i dont think so, phew...lovely lady, never touched her apron strings...honest!!!
i was enjoying your post, it was interesting to go down the psychology route, until you started going on about demon activity!!!! ...[text shortened]... tivity!!! who was your psychology professor rupert giles....are you buffy the vampire slayer????
or perhaps the musings of a madwoman... take your pick. 😛
13 Dec 13
Originally posted by googlefudgeKind of like the evolutionary difference between invertebrates and vertebrates. Except there are successful versions of invertebrates banging around this planet still today. (If there are human societies still worshipping multiple deities, I don't know about it. It is like an evolutionary dead end in my mind. We're well past that as a species, I'd say.)
Which god?
Monotheism, which itself has different versions of a singular god, only makes up
about 55% of believers world wide. [numbers from wiki]
The rest believe in no gods or many gods.
If you want to look at whether people have inate inclinations to believe in gods you
need to consider the fact that only around half of people in the worl ...[text shortened]... I would expect it to look if their was a built in preference
for believing in a singular god.
*And yeah, I know what you're thinking. This concept has zero to do with evolution and so why are you comparing apples and oranges. Because it amuses me, that's why.
13 Dec 13
Originally posted by googlefudgeWhat's even more "frightening" (although highly predictable) is what rejection of truth does to a mind.
Yeah, I have to admit that is what gets me about Suzianne.
She will talk nicely and normally (and intelligently) about something...
And then mention demons or the apocalypse just as normally.
It's frightening and weird what faith does to a mind.
Also, I'm not sure Buffy lived in a Christian universe...
While there are demons and gods (pl ...[text shortened]... to
return...
So whatever's inspiring her... Don't think it's Buffy, or giles...
😉 😛
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13 Dec 13
Originally posted by SuzianneHey don't put yourself down.
Kind of like the evolutionary difference between invertebrates and vertebrates. Except there are successful versions of invertebrates banging around this planet still today. (If there are human societies still worshipping multiple deities, I don't know about it. It is like an evolutionary dead end in my mind. We're well past that as a species, I'd say.) ...[text shortened]... th evolution and so why are you comparing apples and oranges. Because it amuses me, that's why.
You're not spineless.
😛
13 Dec 13
Originally posted by Grampy BobbyHave a stab Gramps, you couldn't do much worse than Suzianne.
"So how does one discern between 'Real Faith' and, I guess, 'Fake Faith'?" Proper Knob
Hi, PK. If you're still interested in the applicable facts blurred by this distinction without a difference, I'll provide them.
13 Dec 13
Originally posted by SuzianneI personally really welcome your presence here as reasoned and reasonable theist. I have enjoyed the thread although I have only read it today and not had the time to take part.
Actually, I'm not trying to change your mind. I do not believe I have the power to do so, just as you do not have the power to change my mind. If you recall, the majority of my posts in this thread have been asking you about your motivations and trying to explain my views vis a vis your views. And 'explaining' is not 'trying to convince' you of the desir ...[text shortened]... lt, I think we're a little bit beyond the 'convincing' and 'trying to convert' stage, don't you?
I would like to pick you up on this bit:
And I was asking honest questions trying to understand your view. I think that's probably a lot better than what you get from a lot of theists in here.
I think, you have answered your own questions within the following:
Of course, but as I've told you before, I understand *Christian* theology, and so I must drag any opposing view through that prism. When I speak of God, I'm only speaking of the only God I know, the God of Abraham, the God of the Bible. I really have no interest in any other gods (and thus your reaction to them), because to me they do not exist. "... incredibly Christian/monotheistic centric view..." Yes. It's the only view I have.
If you think about your attitude to those gods, I think you will understand our position about yours. Do you reject the gods themselves? I would guess 'no' because you don't believe they exist. Do you reject any arguments for those gods? I would guess 'yes' because you don't find them to be convincing arguments. All we do is apply the same reasoning to your arguments for your god.
Does that help at all?
Penguin.
13 Dec 13
Originally posted by SuzianneSurely Hinduism counts? They have thousands of gods!
Kind of like the evolutionary difference between invertebrates and vertebrates. Except there are successful versions of invertebrates banging around this planet still today. (If there are human societies still worshipping multiple deities, I don't know about it. It is like an evolutionary dead end in my mind. We're well past that as a species, I'd say.) ...[text shortened]... th evolution and so why are you comparing apples and oranges. Because it amuses me, that's why.
http://www.polytheism.net/ also mentions several other eastern religions. Polytheism is certainly not dead.
Polytheism - Modern World
Polytheism still represents much of the world today. Except for the monotheistic (belief in one God) religions of Christianity, Judaism and Islam, most of the world's religions are overwhelmingly polytheistic. Polytheism characterizes the beliefs of Hinduism, Mahayana Buddhism, Confucianism, Taoism and Shintoism in the East, and also contemporary tribal religions in Africa and the Americas. These religions are widely practiced throughout the world and remain very popular in their ancestral areas.
Some polytheistic beliefs are also popular in today's Western Civilization. This appears to be a result of increased immigration of Eastern cultures and the mainstream popularity of New Age pluralism. Unlike Christian, Jewish and Islamic doctrine, there is rarely an absolute truth associated with polytheistic thinking. Ideas of morality (notions of right and wrong) are relative to the individual or culture. Each believer is free to worship the god of his or her choice in the manner of his or her liking. As a result, each person is free to behave as he or she sees fit. Although polytheistic systems provide flexibility and a relativistic lack of accountability, they often leave followers with no sense of ultimate purpose and no prospect for eternal hope. Monotheistic faiths such as Christianity teach that absolute truth is reality, mankind is on earth for a purpose, and eternal salvation is possible for those seeking a reconciled relationship with the one true God.
13 Dec 13
Originally posted by Proper KnobOriginally posted by Proper Knob
Have a stab Gramps, you couldn't do much worse than Suzianne.
"So how does one discern between 'Real Faith' and, I guess, 'Fake Faith'?"
Faith: "Noun. Strong belief or trust in someone or something." Merriam-Webster; "Complete trust or confidence in someone or something." Oxford Dictionaries; "Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen." Hebrews 11:1; "And the Lord said, If you had faith as a grain of mustard seed..." Luke 17:6 (Little more than none at all)
Even at our best, none of us can ever earn or deserve a relationship with God. Only the object of faith, Jesus Christ, has merit. An individual's faith in the person and work of Christ (His substitutionary spiritual death or separation from the Father at the crucifixion) makes personal salvation possible. What is that "faith"? Faith is simply your decision to believe (accept, receive) the message of Christ as true. Faith alone in Christ alone is salvation. Attitude toward Christ is the only issue.
Mechanics: 1) At a point in time, an unbeliever expresses personal interest in the Message of Christ; 2) God the Holy Spirit acts in place of the human spirit to make the spiritual phenomena of the Gospel (Good News of the completed work of the Risen Christ) understandable to that unbeliever; 3) If he or she then responds to God the Father by simply forming words in his or her own mind: Father, I believe in Christ, the Holy Spirit immediately makes that faith effective for salvation.
1 Corinthians 2:14 explains this spiritual phenomena: "But a natural man [unbeliever] does not accept the things of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them [the Gospel and Bible Doctrine] because they are spiritually discerned [appraised from the human spirit, which is acquired at the moment of regeneration].
"He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not believe in the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." John 3:36 The phrase "Real Faith and Fake Faith" represents a distinction without a difference. -Bob
13 Dec 13
Originally posted by SuzianneYou don't know about it?
If there are human societies still worshipping multiple deities, I don't know about it. It is like an evolutionary dead end in my mind. We're well past that as a species, I'd say
Only last week I said there were monotheistic religions which were not Abrahamic and you told me they were polytheistic.
But I digress; I wanted to agree that religions evolve as much as any
cultural practice. It is survival of the fittest - religions survive while they
fulfil a need. But eventually all will become extinct.