Human Rights in Islamic Countries

Originally posted by scherzo
Indeed.

The rest of this post is directed at our dear friend Dr. Scribbles.

Dr., Nicaragua and El Salvador are both Christian countries. Their population is almost completely Catholic, and they follow the New Testament as their special Holy writing. Their laws are worse than Jordan or Lebanon.

They are.

The Vatican has horrible laws too. If you w ...[text shortened]... m the Old Testament. It's because they're divided by class from the rest of the First world.

how can you say this Scherzo, for the Doc has already shown, that there are incredibly wealthy Islamic nations, where human right violations abound!

Originally posted by generalissimo
not hesitating or fearful in the face of actual or possible danger,
not hesitating to break the rules of propriety; forward; impudent.

This is how you would describe my demeanour on these Forums?

🙄

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
No more danger of conscription than the U.K., oh really!

That's right.

What does your link about South Korean conscription have to do with Indonesia's Child Protection Law?

Originally posted by sonhouse
It has always been my opinion that ALL religious based societies are immature, not mature enough to fashion a secular morality and instead resort to bible thumpers, Koran thumpers, and their like in other religions.

Why is this addressed to me? Please read my previous posts.

Originally posted by FMF
That's right.

What does your link about South Korean conscription have to do with Indonesia's Child Protection Law?

I posted a new link FMF which clearly shows a constitutional movement, not in south Korea, but in your beloved Indonesia towards militarism and forced conscription, if you would make reference to that, then we can talk, as for your claims of child protection, it seems to me that the Romans were crying about the very same thing almost 2000 years ago,

Pliny to the Emperor Trajan

It is my practice, my lord, to refer to you all matters concerning which I am in doubt. For who can better give guidance to my hesitation or inform my ignorance? I have never participated in trials of Christians. I therefore do not know what offenses it is the practice to punish or investigate, and to what extent. And I have been not a little hesitant as to whether there should be any distinction on account of age or no difference between the very young and the more mature; whether pardon is to be granted for repentance, or, if a man has once been a Christian, it does him no good to have ceased to be one; whether the name itself, even without offenses, or only the offenses associated with the name are to be punished.

Meanwhile, in the case of those who were denounced to me as Christians, I have observed the following procedure: I interrogated these as to whether they were Christians; those who confessed I interrogated a second and a third time, threatening them with punishment; those who persisted I ordered executed. For I had no doubt that, whatever the nature of their creed, stubbornness and inflexible obstinacy surely deserve to be punished. There were others possessed of the same folly; but because they were Roman citizens, I signed an order for them to be transferred to Rome.

Soon accusations spread, as usually happens, because of the proceedings going on, and several incidents occurred. An anonymous document was published containing the names of many persons. Those who denied that they were or had been Christians, when they invoked the gods in words dictated by me, offered prayer with incense and wine to your image, which I had ordered to be brought for this purpose together with statues of the gods, and moreover cursed Christ--none of which those who are really Christians, it is said, can be forced to do--these I thought should be discharged. Others named by the informer declared that they were Christians, but then denied it, asserting that they had been but had ceased to be, some three years before, others many years, some as much as twenty-five years. They all worshipped your image and the statues of the gods, and cursed Christ.

They asserted, however, that the sum and substance of their fault or error had been that they were accustomed to meet on a fixed day before dawn and sing responsively a hymn to Christ as to a god, and to bind themselves by oath, not to some crime, but not to commit fraud, theft, or adultery, not falsify their trust, nor to refuse to return a trust when called upon to do so. When this was over, it was their custom to depart and to assemble again to partake of food--but ordinary and innocent food. Even this, they affirmed, they had ceased to do after my edict by which, in accordance with your instructions, I had forbidden political associations. Accordingly, I judged it all the more necessary to find out what the truth was by torturing two female slaves who were called deaconesses. But I discovered nothing else but depraved, excessive superstition.

I therefore postponed the investigation and hastened to consult you. For the matter seemed to me to warrant consulting you, especially because of the number involved. For many persons of every age, every rank, and also of both sexes are and will be endangered. For the contagion of this superstition has spread not only to the cities but also to the villages and farms. But it seems possible to check and cure it. It is certainly quite clear that the temples, which had been almost deserted, have begun to be frequented, that the established religious rites, long neglected, are being resumed, and that from everywhere sacrificial animals are coming, for which until now very few purchasers could be found. Hence it is easy to imagine what a multitude of people can be reformed if an opportunity for repentance is afforded.

Trajan to Pliny

You observed proper procedure, my dear Pliny, in sifting the cases of those who had been denounced to you as Christians. For it is not possible to lay down any general rule to serve as a kind of fixed standard. They are not to be sought out; if they are denounced and proved guilty, they are to be punished, with this reservation, that whoever denies that he is a Christian and really proves it--that is, by worshiping our gods--even though he was under suspicion in the past, shall obtain pardon through repentance. But anonymously posted accusations ought to have no place in any prosecution. For this is both a dangerous kind of precedent and out of keeping with the spirit of our age.

any of this ringing a bell? 😉

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
any of this ringing a bell?

Yes. An alarm bell. As TerrierJack said about you, with deathly aptness, a page or two ago...

Some people are incapable of comprehending the world as it is. They are unable to pay attention to anything except the furious muddle of self that rolls around in their heads and which (unfortunately for this rest of us) periodically tosses off debris.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
militarism and forced conscription

What is the difference between "forced conscription" and "conscription"?

The last 10 years since the fall have Soeharto have seen a marked decline in 'miltarism' in Indonesia. One wonders how you could be commenting on this country and not know that.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
I posted a new link FMF which clearly shows a constitutional movement, not in south Korea, but in your beloved Indonesia towards militarism and forced conscription, if you would make reference to that, then we can talk

There is no conscription in Indonesia. It's an all volunteer army.

You posted this link http://www.opendoorsuk.org.uk/news/news_archives/001913.php about Christian adults proseltysing Muslim children, falling foul of Child Protection Laws here in Indonesia, laws which - incidentally - protect Christian children from Islamic proseltysing too - and then you went deadly quiet about the details of the case once I'd responded. You merely refered to my response as "fiction". Maybe that's something we can talk about rather than South Korea or Indonesia's volunteer military?

Originally posted by FMF
Yes. An alarm bell. As TerrierJack said about you, with deathly aptness, a page or two ago...

[b]Some people are incapable of comprehending the world as it is. They are unable to pay attention to anything except the furious muddle of self that rolls around in their heads and which (unfortunately for this rest of us) periodically tosses off debris.[/b]

is that the best you got? a quotation from terrier sack? come on FMF you are better than that, these things are not muddles as he pontificates, they are actually crystal clear, and his reference to debris is but his own perception, he does not like it that others are different, or have different perceptions to him, he can tell you know! he is not only able to speak for himself, but for others, like you for example, its reminiscent of the Borg, i can imagine you know, with your collective sub conscious, you and terrier sack, Borging around, we have it all figured out!, we shall assimilate you!

Originally posted by FMF
There is no conscription in Indonesia. It's an all volunteer army.

You posted this link http://www.opendoorsuk.org.uk/news/news_archives/001913.php about Christian adults proseltysing Muslim children, falling foul of Child Protection Laws here in Indonesia, laws which - incidentally - protect Christian children from Islamic proseltysing too - and then you wen t's something we can talk about rather than South Korea or Indonesia's volunteer military?

i never went deadly silent, i had to do stuff, and as you noticed, the article that i posted, clearly stated that the parents of the aforementioned children, had given their consent, but to jail the three women, for a number of years, for starting a Sunday school, is well, how can i say this without hurting your feelings....regressive.

Originally posted by FMF
There is no conscription in Indonesia. It's an all volunteer army.

You posted this link http://www.opendoorsuk.org.uk/news/news_archives/001913.php about Christian adults proseltysing Muslim children, falling foul of Child Protection Laws here in Indonesia, laws which - incidentally - protect Christian children from Islamic proseltysing too - and then you wen t's something we can talk about rather than South Korea or Indonesia's volunteer military?

this has been acknowledged, although it remains enshrined in the constitution

Conscription has, however, never been enforced in general apart from certain forms of selective conscription (see: military service). Voluntary applications are usually sufficient to obtain the requisite number of recruits, as in Indonesia a military career is widely regarded as a step on the social ladder.

http://www.wri-irg.org/node/1281

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
how can you say this Scherzo, for the Doc has already shown, that there are incredibly wealthy Islamic nations, where human right violations abound!

Still Third World. And it's not because of the Islam, because, as I've demonstrated (a) many Christian and atheist (and the one self-proclaimed Jewish) countrie(s) have bad human rights records as well, and (b) Islam does not preach poor human rights. These values come right out of the Old Testament, which is followed by all Jews, Christians, and Muslims.

Originally posted by scherzo
Still Third World. And it's not because of the Islam, because, as I've demonstrated (a) many Christian and atheist (and the one self-proclaimed Jewish) countrie(s) have bad human rights records as well, and (b) Islam does not preach poor human rights. These values come right out of the Old Testament, which is followed by all Jews, Christians, and Muslims.

i am mot entirely convinced by this argument Scherzo, for Islam, in its acknowledgment of fate and predestination, must be, along with Hinduism, one of the most conservative ideologies out there. i am rich because, inshalla, god willing, you are poor, because it is your fate.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
the article that i posted, clearly stated that the parents of the aforementioned children, had given their consent

No it didn't. It did not explicitly state that the Muslim parents gave their consent for "bible studies". Indeed it is inconceivable in this culture that they would have. It made my wife and sister in law (a Muslim) laugh when they read the web page on my computer screen. They said it must mean that the parents consented to the songs and games. My kids go to such a mixed faith kiddies' group. Let me assure you there are no Korans or Bibles there. Your article jumbles songs, games and the Bible studies together.

If the article were to clearly state that this was the case (consent from Muslims to Christians to proseltyse their Muslim children - in Indramayu no less!!!), then I have no doubt whatsoever that the article is false. Apply your professed intimate knowledge of Indonesia to refuting this.

Robbie, unfortunately for you (as evidenced by your citing of South Korean conscription law as an answer to the information I gave you about the Indonesian Child Protection Laws) you have absolutely no idea who or what or where you are talking about.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
this has been acknowledged, although it remains enshrined in the constitution

Conscription has, however, never been enforced in general apart from certain forms of selective conscription (see: military service). Voluntary applications are usually sufficient to obtain the requisite number of recruits, as in Indonesia a military career is widely regarded as a step on the social ladder.

http://www.wri-irg.org/node/1281

So?

There is no conscription here. The army is all volunteer, as your link confirms.

What is the point you are trying to make?

What has this got to do with the Indonesian Child Protection Laws and the protection they afford for Christians here, among others?