Humans have choices.

Originally posted by FMF
I am not aware of anyone supporting animal cruelty on this forum. I don't support animal cruelty, as I have explained to you, and which you have accepted.

Many people disagree with you about there being a spiritual imperative to be a vegetarian. Quite clearly "religious" people and "spiritual people" can eat meat.

Just saying - over and over and over aga ...[text shortened]... with you "dishonest" and "in error" in what seems like every singe one of your posts?

I am going to clear this up once and for all right now...

Have you noticed I have not discussed with the atheists animal cruelty, like I do with you and religionists....Why?

Because when persons state, that they are living and following a spiritual/religious life, and they say they support the slaughter house, then that concerns me very much because this is the spirituality forum and anything about spirituality/religion...that is put forward and is incorrect, is misdirecting the people.

This world is the macro and this forum is the micro.

If an atheists states he eats meat and loves it...then I will leave him to himself, because he has bigger problems than meat.

Now when a person, lets say you, comes in the forum and states they are following spirituality, and that animal cruelty is not wrong...(where not talking about animal cruelty)....but where talking about the wrongness of animal cruelty. (the wrongness ok)

When they state that they are aware that animal cruelty causes suffering and admit that....then I accept their acceptance of that.

But when they state that it is not wrong to cause suffering to animals, they are clearly making a false statement.

And because this is the spirituality forum, that false statement must be corrected before anyone can move forward and discuss other things.

You have said causing animal suffering is not wrong, ( buy denying it) because your belief system protects you.

The wrongness of causing animals to suffer, cannot be rejected by inventing your own self styled spirituality.

Causing animals to suffer is wrong, and it is a universal truth thats says this...and also common sense.

You have tried to sweep the wrongness under the mat, by saying the wrongness is just Dasa,s belief system...but its not Dasa,s belief system and the fact that it is wrong is a universal truth and has nothing to do with belief.

Any spirituality that attempts to say causing animals to suffer is not wrong......is a bogus spirituality...agreed.

If you still say ......your fabricated beliefs declare causing animal cruelty is not wrong, then your self styled spirituality is worthless.

The reason I am sticking to this particular discussion, is because I will not let pseudo spirituality go un-checked, because it cheapens and corrupts true knowledge of spirituality/religion.

Your self styled pseudo spirituality mocks the truth.

Are you now able to acknowledge that causing suffering to animals is wrong????

Originally posted by Andrew Hamilton
“..."Vegetarian food leaves a deep impression on our nature..."

Pale, anemic, weak, soft, wimpy, girlish, sissyish, jibber-jabbering, ..... “

LOL

like you, I am not too impresses with this "Vegetarian food leaves a deep impression on our nature" comment.
I can think of some very good reasons for becoming vegetarian (like I did) but he hasn much saturated fat it has (if you don't go vegi ) and lifestyle factors, possibly health.

I have mentioned this in another post. ( economic factor)

I said 100 acres of land can produce over 500% more food than the same land raising beef cattle.

But its more likely to be 2000%

Actually its criminal using land for raising beef cattle instead of crops.

Originally posted by Dasa
Now when a person, lets say you, comes in the forum and states they are following spirituality, and that animal cruelty is not wrong...(where not talking about animal cruelty)....but where talking about the wrongness of animal cruelty. (the wrongness ok)

Look, Dasa. You and I do not agree about eating meat and the slaughter of animals to produce meat. We do not agree. You abstain from eating it because it is prohibited according to your belief system. I do not abstain from eating meat because in my belief system there is no prohibition and there is no imperative to adopt a vegetarian lifestyle. Furthermore, I do not condone cruelty to animals. You have already accepted that I do not condone animal cruelty.

Originally posted by Dasa
Any spirituality that attempts to say causing animals to suffer is not wrong......is a bogus spirituality...agreed.

No. Not "agreed". The "spirituality" of people who eat meat is no more or less "bogus" than your "spirituality". I understand that you are sincere when you say that you disagree with me. I am also sincere when I say that I disagree with you.

Originally posted by Dasa
If you still say ......your fabricated beliefs declare causing animal cruelty is not wrong, then your self styled spirituality is worthless.

I fully accept that you are completely sincere when you state that you think my spirituality is "worthless".

your fabricated beliefs declare causing animal cruelty is not wrong

I have stated over and over again that I do not condone "causing animal cruelty". You have already accepted that I do not condone cruelty to animals. We have already reached agreement that I do not support or condone cruelty to animals.

Originally posted by FMF
Look, Dasa. You and I do not agree about eating meat and the slaughter of animals to produce meat. We do not agree. You abstain from eating it because it is prohibited according to your belief system. I do not abstain from eating meat because in my belief system there is no prohibition and there is no imperative to adopt a vegetarian lifestyle. Furthermore, I do not condone cruelty to animals. You have already accepted that I do not condone animal cruelty.

I understand all that....but are you still denying that it is NOT wrong to cause suffering to animals???

Remember in my other posts, when I was describing the different tactics employed to conceal the truth....avoidance, manipulation, not saying something.....and the post is only 24 hrs old and fresh in our minds.

Look I am finished with this topic and I will take your silence as acceptance of what I have put forward.

Originally posted by Dasa
Because when persons state, that they are living and following a spiritual/religious life, and they say they support the slaughter house, then that concerns me very much because this is the spirituality forum and anything about spirituality/religion...that is put forward and is incorrect, is misdirecting the people.

I do not seek to "direct" - or, for that matter, "misdirect" - people. I am not a religionist.

'Directing' people, as you try to do, and claiming to know what 'God's instructions' are, as you do, are the activities of religionists like yourself.

I am not a religionist. I have no instructions for you, Dasa. I am not instructing you to eat meat. I am not asking you to adopt the same spiritual path that I do. I am not trying to 'direct' you or anyone else. I am not a religionist.

Originally posted by Dasa
Look I am finished with this topic and I will take your silence as acceptance of what I have put forward.

My silence? How long is it since you wrote this post, 3 minutes?

You take this "silence" of mine as acceptance of what you have put forward?

According to my belief system, eating meat is not wrong. I condone the slaughter of animals for human consumption. I believe that animals are a legitimate foodstuff. I do not condone cruelty to animals.

Originally posted by FMF
My silence? How long is it since you wrote this post, 3 minutes?

You take this "silence" of mine as acceptance of what you have put forward?

According to my belief system, eating meat is not wrong. I condone the slaughter of animals for human consumption. I believe that animals are a legitimate foodstuff. I do not condone cruelty to animals.

You still, after every thing I said in a clear way, cleverly avoid the real issue.........wrong, wrong wrong wrong, *I am saying to cause suffering to animals is wrong.*

Thats what I am saying.

Do you understand.

DO YOU AGREE???????? that causing animals to suffer is wrong? is that clear enough now.

Originally posted by Dasa
You still, after every thing I said in a clear way, cleverly avoid the real issue.........wrong, wrong wrong wrong,

I eat meat, Dasa. So I support killing animals. Killing them. And then eating them. So whatever you think you are doing by shifting between the word "cruelty" and the word "suffering" and then back to "cruelty", and then back to "suffering" again, and so on and so forth, and whatever you think you are doing using the word "slaughter" as an emotive word when it is simply a technical term, and whatever your quibbling about whatever your definition of "suffering" and "cruelty" happens to be, it is all irrelevant and not credible to me as I do not recognize or submit to Vedic "authority" and my own spiritual code does not compel me to be a vegetarian.

I agree with the animals being killed. I don't like the "suffering" that my wife underwent to give birth to my two children either. It does not mean I am against having children. It does not mean that I am "cruel". My dentist is not "cruel". I am not against dentists. And whether you think I am "honest" or not, and whether you personally approve or not, I am also not against eating meat.

Animals are slaughtered. That is how we are able to get meat from them. I understand that your belief system cannot abide these facts of life. And I believe that you are honest and sincere when you say that you do not condone the slaughter of animals and the subsequent eating of the meat that slaughtering them makes possible.

I have said over and over again that I do not condone unnecessary suffering because I do not condone "cruelty". And yet, having accepted that I do not condone cruelty, and having accepted that I am a meat eater and a theist, and having accepted that we disagree on this issue, you persist with your assertions, even to the point of using whole strings of capital letters, full stops and exclamation marks.

What it all boils down to is that we disagree and no matter how often you repeat yourself and insist that you're "instructing" me, it comes to nothing - whether you are the insulting, abusive vishvahetu, or whether you are Dasa who seems no different from vishvahetu in any meaningful way.

Originally posted by Andrew Hamilton
“..."Vegetarian food leaves a deep impression on our nature..."

Pale, anemic, weak, soft, wimpy, girlish, sissyish, jibber-jabbering, ..... “

LOL

like you, I am not too impresses with this "Vegetarian food leaves a deep impression on our nature" comment.
I can think of some very good reasons for becoming vegetarian (like I did) but he hasn ...[text shortened]... much saturated fat it has (if you don't go vegi ) and lifestyle factors, possibly health.

You may very well be right.

I have spent time as a vegetarian in the past, and did notice how, in some ways, I felt better physically and mentally.

Maybe I'll try it again sometime.