Humans have choices.

Originally posted by vishvahetu
Vedic teachings are about universal truths for mankind....they are not about belief systems.

This is your error

Belief systems can change from one day to the other.

Universal truths do not change because they are eternal truths.

Therefore if you reject universal truths you become a dishonest person .

Because one can only reject universal tr ...[text shortened]... nd to do it truthfully.

If you reject truth....then by default you become a dishonest person.

Vedic teachings are about universal truths for mankind....they are not about belief systems.
That is what you believe, but you cannot prove it to be true.

Belief systems can change from one day to the other.
Usually belief systems do not change fast, because belief systems are pretty irrational and conservative.

Therefore if you reject universal truths you become a dishonest person.
As long as the person truly believes it is not an universal truth he is not dishonest. Some people argue we can not formulate universal truths and relativists deny the existence of moral universal truths. They might be wrong, but that makes them not dishonest

Originally posted by souverein
[b]Vedic teachings are about universal truths for mankind....they are not about belief systems.
That is what you believe, but you cannot prove it to be true.

Belief systems can change from one day to the other.
Usually belief systems do not change fast, because belief systems are pretty irrational and conservative.

Therefore if ...[text shortened]... the existence of moral universal truths. They might be wrong, but that makes them not dishonest

Once again you are being dishonest for implying that you have a choice when it comes to universal truths.

You mat say screw universal truths, but they will still remain as universal truths, and if you act against them, you will still be in error.

Many persons do exactly that....they say I do not accept universal truths, but their rejection is simply a foolish way to feel guiltless

If you want to be an honest person, at least say the following and we will use animal cruelty as an example, but you could use many different falsities that you support.

Say this to be honest......"I do realize that slaughter houses cause suffering to animals, but because I like to eat meat, I will still continue to support animal slaughter" .....this at least will make your comments honest.

But if you continue to deny that animal slaughter causes suffering.....then you will remain dishonest.

Originally posted by vishvahetu
Once again you are being dishonest for implying that you have a choice when it comes to universal truths.

You mat say screw universal truths, but they will still remain as universal truths, and if you act against them, you will still be in error.

Many persons do exactly that....they say I do not accept universal truths, but their rejection is simply ...[text shortened]... ou continue to deny that animal slaughter causes suffering.....then you will remain dishonest.

You are amazing. What turned you on to your choices?

Originally posted by souverein
You are amazing. What turned you on to your choices?

From a young age I wanted to know the truth of life and I looked at everything and questioned everything.

One day I said.....I will be completely honest with myself in my search for the truth of life, and that search led me to Vedanta.

But that is just the beginning because to realize truth, one has to live the spiritual life....not just read about it.

The spiritual life will afford you the perfection of existence, and that is returning back to Godhead.

But you cannot develop your spiritual qualities against your own will, and that means that, you have to desire developing your spiritual life so much, that it comes first in everything you are doing.

Many persons think spiritual living will be slow and boring, but it is wonderful and exciting.

Originally posted by vishvahetu
Have you noticed that the only way you can feel that you are not in error, is by being dishonest and rejecting universal truths.

But vishvahetu, I am not "rejecting universal truths". What I am rejecting is your assertion that your belief system is somehow not a belief system but simply comprises universal truths that everyone must believe and no one can disagree with.

I also reject your clearly mistaken suggestion that my belief system is the same as yours but that I am lying when I say it isn't.

'Eating meat is wrong' is a tenet of your belief system, and I respect that.

'Eating meat is wrong' is not a "universal truth". 'Eating meat is not wrong' is a tenet of my belief system. Our belief systems differ. We disagree. There is no "dishonesty" involved.

You are misusing the term "universal truth". 'Fire damages human flesh' is a "universal truth". 'We die and can be reincarnated on other planets', 'there is life on the Sun', and 'Vedic teachings are the only true religion' are not "universal truths", regardless of how sincerely you believe them to be so.

Originally posted by FMF
But vishvahetu, I am not "rejecting universal truths". What I am rejecting is your assertion that your belief system is somehow not a belief system but simply comprises universal truths that everyone must believe and no one can disagree with.

I also reject your clearly mistaken suggestion that my belief system is the same as yours but that I am lying when I ...[text shortened]... ersal truths", regardless of how sincerely you believe them to be so.

Inflicting suffering to animals, and then saying my belief system tells me it is acceptable is dishonest, because you are the author of your belief system

And because you are a rascal, you author a belief system for yourself that allows you to cause suffering to animals without the guilt.

I have not authored a belief system for myself because what would my referencing be for authoring such a belief system....my mind.

You could just as well author a belief system that tells you robbing the local bank is acceptable.

In your whole life you have accepted authorities for learning many things.....but you reject the authority of Vedanta whimsically because you are not genuine about spirituality, and also it tells you how to behave properly and you do not care in behaving properly.

Actually you like to behave badly and invent your own belief system, that allows you to cause suffering to animals without the conscience that goes with it.

Your self made spirituality is pseudo spirituality.

True spirituality is described in Vedanta and does not teach you falsity.

But you would never know this, because you have rejected Vedanta whimsically.

Originally posted by vishvahetu
Inflicting suffering to animals, and then saying my belief system tells me it is acceptable is dishonest, because you are the author of your belief system

And because you are a rascal, you author a belief system for yourself that allows you to cause suffering to animals without the guilt.

I have not authored a belief system for myself because what ...[text shortened]... ch you falsity.

But you would never know this, because you have rejected Vedanta whimsically.

You have made it quite clear to me that you disagree with my spiritual insights and I am OK with that. We agree to disagree. This has been established beyond doubt. I eat meat with no personal spiritual objection. You do not eat meat because of personal spiritual objections.

In the spirit of decency, I assume you are sincere when you feel that I deserve raw personal abuse.

But the facts of the matter are I am a theist, I am not a religionist like you are, I don't share your belief system, I do not recognize or submit to "Vedic teachings", and I have met far too many jutting, bristling, seething religionists - who insist their particular mish-mash of folk tales, superstition and conjecture about 'the supernatural' or 'the metaphysical' is the "only true religion" - to find your rather caustic, insecure, inferior pitch anything other than irrelevant and not credible.

Originally posted by FMF
You have made it quite clear to me that you disagree with my spiritual insights and I am OK with that. We agree to disagree. This has been established beyond doubt. I eat meat with no personal spiritual objection. You do not eat meat because of personal spiritual objections.

In the spirit of decency, I assume you are sincere when you feel that I deserve raw ...[text shortened]... ther caustic, insecure, inferior pitch anything other than irrelevant and not credible.

Your pseudo spirituality that you have invented, that lets you slaughter animals without conscience, is worthless in actually delivering the goal of spirituality.

What is the goal of spirituality....do you know

You do not even know what the goal is of religion.

Your attacks on me are but a smoke screen, to hide the fact that your spirituality that you have invented, has been exposed as false.

No one can speculate with their conditioned mundane minds, about religious principles or spirituality, or you end up with religions such as Christianity, Islam and Judaism and all the rest that teach so much error.

Any spirituality that destroys the pillars of religion, is false spirituality....can you see that.

Therefore your attacks on me are unwarranted and you should apologize for being dishonest.

I have told you.........that you yourself, have embraced in your life many many authorities to learn what you already have learnt....so why do you reject the Vedanta authority, when it is the only authority existing for mankind without error.

You reject because you are not truthful and you would rather subscribe to a teaching that will support animal cruelty.

Stop posting and saying the same dishonest falsity all the time.

Be truthful.

Originally posted by vishvahetu
You do not even know what the goal is of religion.

I will let religionists address the question of what the goal of religion is. I am not a religionist. For me, religions only create layers of prosaic and obfuscating ceremonies and codes and internalized speculations and "instructions" that - in my view - only insulate us from genuine spiritual exploration and self discovery.

I fully understand that many people do not agree with me or share my belief system, but good people can agree to disagree. And I respect you and your need for "religion" and your need to approach your own spirituality and the spirituality of others with an unquestioning, bitterly intolerant and completely impervious fundamentalism.

I understand your need to embrace an "authority" of some kind and I accept as sincere your apparent defensive need to heap raw personal abuse on those who have sought and chosen a different spiritual path from you.

Originally posted by vishvahetu
Your attacks on me are but a smoke screen, to hide the fact that your spirituality that you have invented, has been exposed as false.

I rather think that I have been merely defending myself from the abuse and insult you have been heaping upon me, and not 'attacking' you at all. Maybe other posters will chime in and set me straight if I've perceived that incorrectly.

What has been "exposed", if anything, is that we disagree. And another thing that has been "exposed" is that I don't really have a problem with you disagreeing with me while you seem to have a big problem with me disagreeing with you. I afford you respect and the assumption that you are sincere, while in return you afford me no respect and accuse me of lying in almost every single post.

In a way this highlights one of the reasons I am not a religionist because so many religionists, like yourself, seek to control, manipulate and berate other people by claiming to know - and have a monopoly over - what 'God's instructions' are, just like you do.

Originally posted by FMF
I will let religionists address the question of what the goal of religion is. I am not a religionist. For me, religions only create layers of prosaic and obfuscating ceremonies and codes and internalized speculations and "instructions" that - in my view - only insulate us from genuine spiritual exploration and self discovery.

I fully understand that many peo ...[text shortened]... aw personal abuse on those who have sought and chosen a different spiritual path from you.

When are you going to be honest, and accept that there is no such thing as spirituality that supports animal cruelty.

Why do you hold tightly onto the falsity of that, and say it is spiritual.

There is nothing spiritual about animal cruelty.

Spirituality embraces mercy, compassion, kindness and non violence....so what is spiritual about animal cruelty.

It is so clear to see, .....that I actually think you are unwell for presenting continually this nonsense.

Many persons think spiritual living will be slow and boring, but it is wonderful and exciting.

No, I don't think life is boring for you. But what can be exiting for one can be boring t for another. We all have our own belief systems. You are convinced there exists one belief system for all mankind. I don't think such a system exists. All belief system are like 2-dimensional photographic prints from a 3- or more dimensional reality. Some are sharp, others are blurred; some are panoramic, others are focused on a detail; some are coloured, others are black and white. Some people are happy with one picture or reprint, others renew their pictures.
I like to look at the pictures of others. It helps sometimes to remove blind spots and to enhance my own picture(s). So thanks for sharing yours.

Originally posted by vishvahetu
When are you going to be honest, and accept that there is no such thing as spirituality that supports animal cruelty.

My spiritual belief system allows me to eat meat. This is a true statement about my belief system made in good faith. If I were to say that I "accept that there is no such thing as spirituality..." that allows eating meat, then that would be a dishonest thing for me to say. I have been truthful with you all along. Why would I lie about my belief system?

I understand, fully, that your belief system includes a prohibition on the eating of meat. And I respect your endeavour to live in accordance with the principles that your belief system lays out for you. I also endeavour to live by mine. I am not being "dishonest" when I say that my belief system does not include a prohibition on the eating of meat. We clearly disagree. And yet I am not calling you "dishonest".

Originally posted by vishvahetu
It is so clear to see, .....that I actually think you are unwell for presenting continually this nonsense.

Unwell? You mean like, mentally ill? What kind of unwellness are you thinking of?

Originally posted by vishvahetu
Why do you hold tightly onto the falsity of that, and say it is spiritual.

You are using the word "falsity" incorrectly, vishvahetu.

The decision to eat or not to eat meat can be a spiritual question, it can be a health question and it can be a political question. There is nothing objectively false about stating this.

Unlike you, I do not refrain from eating meat for spiritual reasons. I have refrained from eating meat for periods of time in the past but it was never because of my spiritual belief system.

I think I can agree with you to disagree on this. Can you agree to disagree?