Originally posted by sonshipIs there stuff that you ~ as a Christian ~ have to do, aside from thinking certain things, in order to be "saved"?
FMF: I am not claiming that my philosophy has any advantage over yours for you.
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That's too bad. Good night.
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Originally posted by FMFGood morning.
I am asking you to explain your philosophy, sonship, and I am not asking you to adopt mine.
sonship: [b]I think Jesus saves. I think Jesus Himself IS salvation.
If you think these things, you can be immortal ~ live on after death ~ right? That is your message?[/b]
I am asking you to explain your philosophy, sonship, and I am not asking you to adopt mine.
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I don't think you are the purely neutral questioner. I think you want to hunt for logical problems with the Gospel of Chrst in order to push your own disbelief.
I appreciate the honesty of your admitting that you don't really have anything as an advantage to me over my faith in the Gospel.
I would include in that unbelief and skepticism toward Christ.
I'll answer a few questions. I will not argue with you perpetually today. I'll field a few your grillings.
sonship: I think Jesus saves. I think Jesus Himself IS salvation.
If you think these things, you can be immortal ~ live on after death ~ right? That is your message?
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This is like listening to me but not listening to me.
I said that Jesus Christ IS salvation.
You can think many things. But it is the Person of Christ Who is the Savior.
"The truth is in Jesus ..." (Eph. 4:21)
Who is the truth in? The truth is in Jesus the living Person.
He is an unusual Person,
But He is a living Person.
In Him is salvation.
Our thinking has to bring us TO Him - the living Person.
That is the good news of the gospel. Christ is alive and available and can be known.
So your future repeated attempts to suggest only human THINKING is a way of salvation, remember, it is the living Person of Christ Himself Who is the Savior and the very salvation.
Jesus said to him, I am the way and the reality and the life, no one comes to the Father except through Me. (John 14:6)
The destination is a living Person - [b]"the Father".
The WAY TO the destination is also a living Person - the "Me" of Jesus Christ Himself.
He comes not simply WITH a truth.
He comes AS the truth, as the reality.
The "Me" is a living Person available to us today. Unusual? Yes He is. But He is available and real.
And He gives Himself to us as the reality, the truth.
He does not give us a truth apart from Himself. He gives Himself to us as the truth and the salvation.
19 Aug 15
The post that was quoted here has been removedI don't understand the desire to draw attention to one's commitment to chastity. So there are women with high religious zeal and low-to-non-existent sex drive. Fine. I don't think Jessica would condemn people for getting married, and I'd think she'd realize that her choice is not going to made by the majority of the human race, and there's nothing wrong with that. So why not keep that commitment between her and God?
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19 Aug 15
Originally posted by FMFSaved and salvation take on varied connotations in the Bible.
Is there stuff that you ~ as a Christian ~ [b]have to do, aside from thinking certain things, in order to be "saved"?[/b]
In most cases and on most levels it is the living Person of Christ Who is the salvation.
Any thinking or alledged things I am responsible to do are only to bring me into union with Him.
"Abide in Me and I in you." says Jesus. Sure, I am commanded to DO something. That is to abide in the sphere and realm of Jesus Himself - a living Person.
My salvation, my saving has and always is on every level in being one with Jesus.
Originally posted by sonshipWhat more than merely thinking certain things does a Christian have to do to get "saved" and become "immortal"? Nothing, right?
Saved and salvation take on varied connotations in the Bible.
In most cases and on most levels it is the living Person of Christ Who is the salvation.
Any thinking or alledged things I am responsible to do are only to bring me into union with Him.
[b]"Abide in Me and I in you." says Jesus. Sure, I am commanded to DO something. That is to a ...[text shortened]... Person.
My salvation, my saving has and always is on every level in being one with Jesus.[/b]
19 Aug 15
Originally posted by sonshipThis is something that occurs in your mind, yes? You have to think that you are "being one with Jesus" and you have to think you will therefore be "saved", yes. If you don't think these things, you are not "saved" right?
My salvation, my saving has and always is on every level in being one with Jesus.
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Originally posted by FMF[b]What more than merely [b]thinking certain things does a Christian have to do to get "saved" and become "immortal"? Nothing, right?[/b]
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I never said anything was accomplished by "merely thinking " certain things. I said Jesus is the salvation and Jesus is resurrected, living and available.
You are laboring to put the words in my mouth - "just THINKING certain things will lead to eternal life."
So you will probably now come at it again - "So aside from thinking certain stuff what else ?"
What is behind your question is an implicit suspicion that Jesus is not raised from the dead and available to know today.
Well the Gospel says -
" ... the last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45)
In resurrection Jesus Christ became in a form that He can impart Himself into our innermost spiritual being. The thinking, whether in regards to eternal redemption or with regards to a practical day by day salvation from many things, is meant to bring us to the living Person.
We do not only have a mind to think. We have a deeper "organ" called our spirit, that can be "joined to the Lord" .
"He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit" (1 Cor. 6:17)
The benefit is in the joining. The saving is in the organic union with Christ Who is now "life giving Spirit".
So we see that in Romans chapter 8 Jesus Christ has two locations, amazingly. He is at the right hand of God interceding for His saved people (v.34). And He is in the believers as the Spirit of God - the Spirit of Christ - and even Christ Himself (vs8-10) .
Here Paul teaches that Christ is in the third heavens interceding for His redeemed -
" Who is he who condemns? It is Christ Jesus who died and, rather, who was raised, who is also at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us." (Rom 8:34)
And here is where in the same chapter Paul teaches that Christ is IN the redeemed believers -
" ... if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Yet is anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not of Him. But if Christ is in you ... " (See vs 9,10)
See? Christ is in Heaven. Christ is also in the believers who have the Spirit of Christ.
Now what about the mind and thinking? It says we Christians must set the mind on the [regenerated human] spirit.
"For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the [human] spirit is life and peace." (v.6)
Christ as life giving Spirit enters into the repentant sinners human spirit to regenerate her and live in her. Then she must learn to live another way. That is to set the mind again and again on that realm within - the regenerated human spirit where the Spirit of Christ has come to indwell her.
Paul encourages the believers to realize that the Spirit of God bears witness WITH their human spirit that they are born of God -
" The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God." (v.16)
That is a very intimate and subjective joining to God as our dear Daddy - our Father. That is our Abba. We know that God is our Father. And we know that we know.
"But you are not in the flesh, but in the spirit [the human born again spirit] if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Yet if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ he is not of Him." (v.9)
19 Aug 15
Originally posted by sonshipNone of these things you talk about appear to be any more than things inside a believer's mind ~ ideas, beliefs, bits of ideology ~ right?.
[b] [b]What more than merely [b]thinking certain things does a Christian have to do to get "saved" and become "immortal"? Nothing, right?[/b]
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I never said anything was accomplished by "merely thinking " certain things. I said Jesus is the salvation and Jesus ...[text shortened]... in you. Yet if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ he is not of Him." (v.9) [/b] [/quote][/b]
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Originally posted by FMFNo I am not dodging your questions at all. I am not allowing you to be so subtle that you put words into my mouth by means of carefully crafted questions.
sonship, you are still dodging my question.
What is the implicit import of your carefully crafted questions? Probably - "Jesus Christ is not alive and is not available. It is all in your mind."
So I am not dodging. I am just not falling into your traps.
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Originally posted by FMFWrong.
None of these things you talk about appear to be any more than things inside a believer's mind ~ ideas, beliefs, bits of ideology ~ right?.
There is a class of things which are very true subjectively and very true objectively as well.
The assumption that very subjective things cannot be real except in the thinker's mind is an exaggeration. That is true of some things. That is not true of all things.
And there are things which are TRUE yet are also very SUBJECTIVE. The dichotomy of Subjective verses Real is being over stretched by you.
God is real yet God is also a very subjective experience. Both are possible. Not ALL things intimately subjective are non-reality.
19 Aug 15
Originally posted by sonshipSo, I ask again, what does a Christian physically have to do, what actions must he take, ~ aside from thinking certain things ~ in order to be "saved"?
Wrong.
There is a class of things which are very true subjectively and very true objectively as well.
The assumption that very subjective things cannot be real except in the thinker's mind is an exaggeration. That is true of some things. That is not true of all things.
And there are things which are TRUE yet are also very SUBJECTIVE. The dich ...[text shortened]... subjective experience. Both are possible. Not ALL things intimately subjective are non-reality.
19 Aug 15
Originally posted by sonshipDo Christians have to think that this is true if they are to be "saved"?
Christ as life giving Spirit enters into the repentant sinners human spirit to regenerate her and live in her. Then she must learn to live another way. That is to set the mind again and again on that realm within - the regenerated human spirit where the Spirit of Christ has come to indwell her.
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19 Aug 15
Originally posted by FMFSo, I ask again, what does a Christian physically have to do, what actions must he take, ~ aside from thinking certain things ~ in order to be "saved"?
So, I ask again, what does a Christian physically have to do, what actions must he take, ~ aside from thinking certain things ~ in order to be "saved"?
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So I explain again. It is Jesus Christ Who does the saving. It is Jesus Himself Who is the salvation. That is either eternally or on a moment to moment bases from many things from which we need saving.
You introduce this time the word "physically". What this additional word is suppose to do for you, I don't know.
However, I have no saving apart from Jesus Himself.
I know no salvation apart from Jesus Himself.
Originally posted by sonshipDo humans only have to think this is true in order to be "saved" (according to your ideology) or are there other actions (aside from thinking these things and the other things you mentioned earlier) that they must take to avoid "damnation"?
However, I have no saving apart from Jesus Himself.
I know no salvation apart from Jesus Himself.