Originally posted by sonship
About the existential seriousness in which you find yourself. This is the sort of doubt about which Nagel is writing. The moral and evaluative framework of your particular religion acts to squash this doubt,
I still don't get this yet. I don't know. Maybe what you mean is that by offering hope I am somehow squashing doubt.
[quote] ...[text shortened]... erit these things, and I will be God to him, and he will be a son to Me." (21:7)
...
Maybe what you mean is that by offering hope I am somehow squashing doubt.
I think hope is just one element of your religious faith. Faith seems very difficult to characterize properly; it seems to be some sort of mongrel state which I think has various dimensions, including cognitive and conative. My objection is not so much specific to hope, as it is generally to all the various trajectories through which faith acts to squash doubt. The problems as I see it are (1) this faith-driven process of doubt-squashing is not a responsible one, with respect to epistemic norms and (2) again, there is a problem of efficacy. I think persons often are naturally disposed, for whatever reasons, toward a neediness to squash uncertainty and feel like they have all the answers to questions they take as important. However, the fact of the matter is that in an epistemic sense, uncertainty is not primarily something under your active control: it is dictated by the strength of whatever evidence is available. One's neediness to have an answer may drive one to uncover such an answer, but this is making a demand on the world that the evidence be such that it warrants a positive conclusion in some way; and a priori there is no reason to think the world will always cooperate. In some ways, I think faith can epitomize the drive to arrive at specific answers in cases where the world does not really cooperate with providing the evidence needed to warrant those answers. In such cases, faith is not the right answer: again, the best approach is ego dissolution, whereby that clawing neediness for answers also dissolves. At bottom, this is nothing more than another case where one craves for the world to be something other than what it appears to be.
As far as this goes, I would add two points of further commentary. One is that hope is not really, at the end of the day, conducive to our living well and living fully, and certainly not sufficient for it. I think there are many reasons for this. Some of these are encapsulated well by the quote below from Thich Nhat Hanh. Secondly, a religion such as Christianity is, in some sense, virtually an apotheosis of this clawing neediness for answers; and because its faith-based prescriptions are so antithetical to an actual solution here, its effects are destructive in this respect. Relevant to this point is the quote below about the parable of the poisoned arrow.
From Peace is Every Step by Thich Nhat Hanh: "Hope is important, because it can make the present moment less difficult to bear. If we believe that tomorrow will be better, we can bear a hardship today. But that is the most that hope can do for us - to make some hardship lighter. When I think deeply about the nature of hope, I see something tragic. Since we cling to our hope in the future, we do not focus our energies and capabilities on the present moment. We use hope to believe something better will happen in the future, that we will arrive at peace, or the Kingdom of God. Hope becomes a kind of obstacle. If you can refrain from hoping, you can bring yourself entirely into the present moment and discover the joy that is already here.
Enlightenment, peace, and joy will not be granted by someone else. The well is within us, and if we dig deeply in the present moment, the water will spring forth. We must go back to the present moment in order to be really alive....
Western civilization places so much emphasis on the idea of hope that we sacrifice the present moment. Hope is for the future. It cannot help us discover joy, peace, or enlightenment in the present moment. Many religions are based on the notion of hope, and this teaching about refraining from hope may create a strong reaction. But the shock can bring about something important. I do not mean that you should not have hope, but that hope is not enough. Hope can create an obstacle for you, and if you dwell in the energy of hope, you will not bring yourself back entirely into the present moment. If you re-channel those energies into being aware of what is going on in the present moment, you will be able to make a breakthrough and discover joy and peace right in the present moment, inside of yourself and all around you."
From the parable of the poisoned arrow (wikipedia): "It's just as if a man were wounded with an arrow thickly smeared with poison. His friends & companions, kinsmen & relatives would provide him with a surgeon, and the man would say, 'I won't have this arrow removed until I know whether the man who wounded me was a noble warrior, a priest, a merchant, or a worker.' He would say, 'I won't have this arrow removed until I know the given name & clan name of the man who wounded me... until I know whether he was tall, medium, or short... until I know whether he was dark, ruddy-brown, or golden-colored... until I know his home village, town, or city... until I know whether the bow with which I was wounded was a long bow or a crossbow... until I know whether the bowstring with which I was wounded was fiber, bamboo threads, sinew, hemp, or bark... until I know whether the shaft with which I was wounded was wild or cultivated... until I know whether the feathers of the shaft with which I was wounded were those of a vulture, a stork, a hawk, a peacock, or another bird... until I know whether the shaft with which I was wounded was bound with the sinew of an ox, a water buffalo, a langur, or a monkey.' He would say, 'I won't have this arrow removed until I know whether the shaft with which I was wounded was that of a common arrow, a curved arrow, a barbed, a calf-toothed, or an oleander arrow.' The man would die and those things would still remain unknown to him."
—Cula-Malunkyovada Sutta: The Shorter Instructions to Malunkya" (MN 63), Majjhima Nikaya
The New Testament also says the believers should be adults concerning in our understanding but childlike concerning malice -
That's nice, but I may just as well cite to you verses that admonish the believer from leaning on his or her own understanding. Fact is, your religious evaluative frameworks, when put into practice, act to severely stunt moral development. It is easy to understand why this is the case. Take for example your childish view that God simply defines morality. Why do I call this view childish? Because not only does it not promote moral development, but it is not even consistent with moral development. Moral development in humans is a multi-faceted process, but one of the requisite features is the move from an evaluative framework marked by heteronomy to one exhibiting autonomy. But what does this require of the moral agent? It requires that, progressively, he or she comes to have more and more familiarity and contact with those considerations and reasons that confer justificatory status on our courses of action and evaluative maxims. And those underlying reasons need to be of a certain sort: they may not simply be prudential in that one simply defers to some putative authority or in that one simply acts to avoid punishment, etc; they need to be reasons that actually explain in some way the moral correctness of those actions or maxims. But, on your view, there simply are no such reasons: moral goodness and correctness on your view is expressed stipulatively through God-based definitions. You have no recourse to any further underlying reasons that would explain why these God-definitions constitute the good. All you have is a mere deference to some putative authority, where you simply read off your reasons for acting in reference to this authority. That's pretty much as childish as it gets. There's no moral maturity at all with this view. Your divine accounts can provide you with maxims and commands that may in fact be good ones; and you may study them and press them into service; but none of this is sufficient for moral autonomy. For that, you need to actually understand the justificatory considerations that underlie them; but doing so would mean contradicting your own account of the good, since it would point to underlying reasons that contradict your commitment to God's being explanatorily prior to the good.
The "eschatological resolution" is the assurance that the globe will be released from the curse of sin and that "the desire of all nations" will come to establish justice and peace.
…and the believer will live happily ever after. Again, show me an adherent of your faith who is not committed to this further condition. Again, I stress that this is not to say that this condition is the principal object of your faith. But it constitutes evidence toward the claim that your faith is ego-pandering.
I need to look no further than this to confidently say that your prescriptions cannot constitute for me a satisfactory step toward resolution of existential dilemma. A responsible prescription for this needs to be one that is at least consistent with terminating in my own demise, if for no other reason than the fact that I will never have sufficient basis for thinking I will never cease to exist. Not only do I think it is possible for us, but it seems to me overwhelming probable that we will all cease to exist. Your solution, applied to me, is basically to turn a blind eye to this. But willful ignorance does not strike me as a viable solution. I don't recommend it for anyone else either. I'm sure your faith is more genuine than that, anyway.
At the end of the day, I understand all the negative attitudes toward the idea that I will cease to exist. But it is false that in order to live well I need to eradicate this realization, either through willful ignorance or through faith-based, hope-fueled escape into some other destiny. I can live well and fully even in the face of this realization, and I think that is the responsible course. Again, ego dissolution is key.
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08 Feb 14
10 edits
Originally posted by LemonJelloI did like the parable by Nikaya on the poison arrow. That resonated with personal experience.
The previous paragraph to this I read very carefully. No comment yet. I'll comment on some of these thoughts:
That's nice, but I may just as well cite to you verses that admonish the believer from leaning on his or her own understanding.
You allude to a part of a passage which I think the entire thought should be conveyed:
Proverbs 3:5-7 "Trust in Jehovah with all your heart, and do not lean on your own understanding; (v.5) In all your ways acknowledge Him, And He will make your paths straight. (v.6) Do not be wise in your own eyes; Fear Jehovah and depart from evil. (v.7) It will be healing to your body and refreshment to your bones." (v.8)
It is not my experience at all that heeding an exhortation like this somehow stunts my moral growth. Rather it results in the transformation of the mind, the growth of discernment, the encrease of much needed wisdom, and the joy of feeling the smile of God upon your heart.
Fact is, your religious evaluative frameworks, when put into practice, act to severely stunt moral development.
Walking in the Spirit of Christ, having received Him, results in transformation into His personality. The NT speaks of transformation from one degree of expression, to another degree of expression, to another, and to another ... etc. more and more until the soul of the man or woman becomes like Christ. And Christ has the highest level of morality in the universe.
Walking with Christ in this way also results in the growth of freedom.
"Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is there is freedom. But we all with unveiled face, beholding and reflecting like a mirror the glory of the Lord are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory even as from the Lord Spirit." (2 Cor. 3:17,18)
Those are not just pretty sounding meaningless words.
When the covering veil is removed from our heart's eyes, so that our spiritual eyes of our heart become "unveiled" we behold a living Person - the available Lord Jesus.
In our heart we behold and reflect this Person that we are beholding - "like a mirror" . Turning our heart to Jesus Christ, unveiled, gazing at His glory, the beholder undergoes transformation into the Person he is beholding.
When a man and woman get married, very often, if they are in love, they will begin to look like each other. They reflect one another and take on each others' expression in the face.
This is an analogy. The man who receives the Spirit of Jesus Christ, spending more and more time inwardly beholding the face of Christ deep in his spirit, will be transformed by degrees, over time to reflect in his heart Jesus Christ. That is from one degree of expression (glory) to another degree, to another, over time becoming more and more like Jesus Christ.
This transformation is also growth in divine life and in the highest level of human morality available to man. This is a kind of "metabolic" transformation from Adam nature to Christ likeness.
Expressed in other words, the Apostle spoke of Christ Himself being formed in the believers -
"My children, with whom I travail again in birth until Christ is formed in you. " (Galatians 4:19)
This is a living Person who is available, made distributable, implanted in seed form, and can be formed in the Christians. That is Christ takes shape. Christ fills more and more the personality. Christ is formed in you. And Jesus Christ is the highest moral human being who ever lived.
Expressed in other words still. This is putting on the new man. The analogy is like putting on a new suit of clothing. Only one is putting on a new humanity, a new divinized human personality evolving into higher realms of moral purity.
"That you put off, as regards your former manner of life, the old man, which is being corrupted according to the lusts of the deceit, And that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind and put on the new man, which was created according to God in righteousness and holiness of the reality." (Eph. 4:22-24)
Whether the New Testament is speaking of -
the increase of freedom,
or transformation by beholding and reflecting,
or Christ being formed in you,
or the renewing of the mind,
or putting on the new man,
or going from glory to glory by degrees,
all expressions relate not to the stunting of development but the growth of moral maturity.
If you say that being a follower of Jesus will allow you to be stunted in moral development, I would say "Only if you want to be." And many of us see the obvious teachings that we are to be transformed, conformed, sanctified, shaped to be thoroughly inside like Jesus.
If you would get a Concordance of the Bible and look up the occurrence of the words grow or growth you would see many exhortations to spiritually and morally do so.
The reason Jesus changed the name of His leading disciple Simon to Peter signifies the intention of Jesus to change every man who comes to Him.
"And Simon Peter answered and said, You are the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said to him [Simon], Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in the heavens.
And I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it." (Matt. 16:16-17)
The changing of a man's name in the Bible, by Christ in the New Testament or by God in the Old Testament, signifies the transformation of that person, a growth closer to express God. And God and the Son of God are the highest morality.
Your accusation that the Christian faith stunts moral growth has to be dismissed wholesale and unequivocally. It is abnormal not to grow into Christ as a Christian. It is normal to grow into His likeness as a disciple.
I desire the normal Christian life. I don't have to follow abnormal examples. And neither do you if you wish to be a normal follower of Jesus.
I can seek normal examples of growing disciples. I don't have to follow defeated brothers who have remained stunted. I can seek overcoming brothers and sisters who cooperate with the growing grace of Christ. That is those who are truly having a change of "name" and a change of moral expression.
11 Feb 14
Originally posted by sonshipI think this shows great confusion over what is required for moral development, maturation, and autonomy. What you describe is some process whereby one hitches his moral reasons and deliberations to some putative authority and then, somehow, some supernatural transformation proceeds, eventuating in one's becoming a mature moral agent. Sorry, but that sounds like pure fantasy to me. That's not how maturation actually proceeds in the real world. In the real world, it's not sufficient for maturation that one defer to some authority and then wait for some supernatural force to work its magic. Specific changes have to happen that ensure that one's evaluative commitments represent his or her own work, and what you are describing provides nothing convincing by way of this. What you describe is the equivalent of hitching your moral wagon to a star...and the rest of the details for how this transformation takes place are just vague and mysterious. Sorry, I'm not convinced. And I have already provided detailed reasons why I think your moral view does not conduce to -- indeed, is not even really compatible with -- moral maturation. Again, transition from heteronomy to autonomy is requisite; whereas your moral view is inherently heteronomous in structure. If you are interested in more background on this, one of the seminal works would be Patrick Nowell-Smith's Morality: Religious and Secular.
I did like the parable by Nikaya on the poison arrow. That resonated with personal experience.
The previous paragraph to this I read very carefully. No comment yet. I'll comment on some of these thoughts:
That's nice, but I may just as well cite to you verses that admonish the believer from leaning on his or her own understanding.
...[text shortened]... Christ. That is those who are truly having a change of "name" and a change of moral expression.
Back to the main event, you have provided no actual arguments that show that there is no meaning in the absence of God, or in the absence of theistic commitments. Your belief in God and all the attendant dispositions thereof can help imbue your life with all sorts of meaning, no one here is disputing that. But showing that would be a very far cry from showing that such things are somehow necessary for such meaning. Do you have any more arguments on that front? Anything you think I am missing or have overlooked?
14 Feb 14
Originally posted by sonshipOriginally posted by sonship (OP)
Now I would really like to know what difference any kind of life makes if there is no God. I don't know to start a new thread. Maybe, I'll just ask it here.
Now if God does not exist then what difference does it make that anyone lived, anything existed, how we behaved, what we "lived" for ?
Honestly. What difference does it make ?
"Now I would really like to know what difference any kind of life makes if there is no God. I don't know to start a new thread. Maybe, I'll just ask it here.
Now if God does not exist then what difference does it make that anyone lived, anything existed, how we behaved, what we "lived" for ?
Honestly. What difference does it make ?"
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16 Feb 14
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Originally posted by LemonJelloLemonJello,
Patrick Nowell-Smith's Morality: Religious and Secular.
Back to the main event, you have provided no actual arguments that show that there is no meaning in the absence of God, or in the absence of theistic commitments. Your belief in God and all the attendant dispositions thereof can help imbue your life with all sorts of meaning, no one here i ...[text shortened]... you have any more arguments on that front? Anything you think I am missing or have overlooked?[/b]
Without re-reading all of how we arrived at this point, I would like to comment on this last post of yours.
I think this shows great confusion over what is required for moral development, maturation, and autonomy.
If by "autonomy" you mean independence from God, I do not want that kind of "autonomy." I want to learn as the Son of God demonstrated, dependence upon God.
The first couple, Adam and Eve, were tempted to pursue the "autonomy" I think you speak of. It brought in sin and death. My concept of "maturity" is more blending, union, and cooperation with God as was manifested in the life of Jesus.
What you describe is some process whereby one hitches his moral reasons and deliberations to some putative authority and then, somehow, some supernatural transformation proceeds, eventuating in one's becoming a mature moral agent.
This is going to be difficult for you to understand. Perhaps at this point it will be impossible for you to comprehend in the few words in which I am going to answer this paragraph.
What I described is like the organic grafting of a branch into a tree. "I am the vine, you are the branches" is the uniting of TWO lives. The stronger life infuses the weaker life with its strength. The sickly life is infused with the health of the perfectly sound life.
As in grafting a sickly branch that has been detached back into its organic union with the source of its vitally needed nutrients and vitamins, so man needs to joined to God in Jesus Christ.
The "autonomy" of a branch that is severed from its tree is the death of that branch. To be grafted into the source of its health and life is to end its "autonomy" and join it into the source of its health and life.
Man was "alienated from the life of God" in the beginning of human history on earth. Being joined to Christ is like grating the severed branch into the tree which is its life source and support.
Sorry, but that sounds like pure fantasy to me.
I realize that it sounds like fantasy to you that we speak of "It is no longer I that live, but Christ that lives within me."
I realize that now it sounds like fantasy to you that Jesus said - "We/b] Father and Son will come to him and make an abode with him." [/b]
This sounds fantastic or even worse nonsensical to the natural mind until someone inters into the experience of being joined to the Lord.
I believe that though at this moment being indwelt with by the Spirit of Jesus Christ sounds like fantasy to you, nevertheless, I believe you DO sense that SOMETHING ... SOMETHING is MISSING deep down in your being. And you do not know what it is.
I know that the unbeliever senses something of a vacuum or empty space somewhere in his life. He does not know what is missing. But something he knows is not being provided by all that this world has to provide.
Whether the unbeliever in Christ likes it or not, there is a spiritual dimension to the human life. And if it is not being experienced you may not know what is missing. But you know that something is missing.
It might be compared to a three dimensional being living on a plane of only two dimensions. When that third dimension is awakened you will know that that is the matter which you knew was not there before and you feel more normal as a more completed human being.
That's not how maturation actually proceeds in the real world.
The growth of God's life increasing, spreading, saturating and permeating the soul of the man joined to God is the maturation of the world without end. The Godless world is temporary.
The world of men and women with God imparted into their being is the eternal world.
What you call "the real world" without Jesus Christ imparted into men is the world that is passing away. That is the world that is being devoured by sin. That is the world that is in a dynamic withdrawal into damnation. That is the world sinking into an eternity of meaninglessness.
The world without end which we are "building" is being expressed in communities on all five of the continents throughout the globe. It is growing everywhere the gospel is received and bearing fruit.
Here is a map and addresses where some of these maturing God-people are growing and maturing in the divine life -
www.localchurches.org
This is local practical communities where men and women, boys and girls are growing eternal life. What you call "the real world" is passing away.
"If anyone loves the world, love for the Father is not in him; Because all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the vainglory of life, is not of the Father but is of the world.
And the world is passing away, and its lust, but he who does the will of God abides forever." (1 John 2:15b-17)
The Christian is maturing unto the unshakable and eternal kingdom. The so-called "real world" of godlessness which you speak of is the Titanic headed for the bottom of the dark and cold ocean floor of eternity. You may have it and whatever "maturity" you imagine will save it.
The world without God lies in the evil one - "We know that we are of God, and the whole world lies in the evil one." (1 John 5:19)
The word picture there is Greek is like a man lying helplessly on an operating table with all of his inner parts exposed to some evil doctor like Mendel the Nazi. He simply "lies" before the wicked experiments of this evil physician.
Passively and helplessly " ... the whole world lies in the evil one."
The world the children of God are building is the kingdom of God.
In the real world, it's not sufficient for maturation that one defer to some authority and then wait for some supernatural force to work its magic.
The source of the world, God's world is supernatural. You have no natural explanation for how something arose out of absolutely nothing. The Bible does. And its source is also the Father to all those who will allow themselves to be born of Him - born from above.
Deriding this by calling it magic means nothing. There is a Man in human history - Jesus of Nazareth. What He spoke for three and one half years shattered human history. And people said "Things will never be the same. We have to divide time up on the planet between Before Christ and in the Year of Our Lord Christ."
That is three and one half years of a man's life. That is 42 months of a carpenter's legal son traveling and speaking and performing things that testified what God and Man in coordination can do. That is 1,277.5 days of a man living which made a cataclysmic moral impact on the human race.
Death could not hold Him. And His Father vindicated Him - testifying to His words - "I am the resurrection and the life ..."
Through this one I am able to approach the highest moral standard of life on earth, by growth and transformation. I do not say I have arrived yet. I say I know that Christ is growing in me.
Supernatural it is. Rather the highest normality it is. For it is normal that man and God should intertwine. It is abnormal that man should be estranged from the Spirit of God. Your "real world" is quite abnormal if it is without God and people blending together in living.
Specific changes have to happen that ensure that one's evaluative commitments represent his or her own work, and what you are describing provides nothing convincing by way of this.
More than human philosophy or even human religion, we are convinced of the practical models we have around the globe of communities of men and women living in oneness with Jesus.
www.localchurches.org.
You see we have practical living models of this kingdom living on all five of the continents. I just came from a meeting of praise with English speaking, Korean speaking, Chinese speaking, and Spanish speaking believers in Christ. The oneness was heavenly. The mutual love and unity was wonderful. So as this divine and spiritual life of Christ grows in us we are growing into the world without end - the eternal kingdom of God.
The "real world" you set your hopes in is the Titanic.
And I think I have made enough point here. What else do you have ?
What you describe is the equivalent of hitching your moral wagon to a star...and the rest of the details for how this transformation takes place are just vague and mysterious.
I don't doubt at all that it sound vague or mysterious to you.
For years Jesus Christ sounded not only vague to me but irrelevant to the so called "real world. That is until I woke up to realize what this real world was doing to my humanity in ruining me for God's eternal purpose.
But your sins are not so vague and mysterious to you. Some of your offeneses against others are not vague and mysterious as far as those who suffered from your transgressions are concerned.
And you need a forgiveness from God which is not that vague or mysterious. You are carrying around the weight of guilt upon your conscience which Christ can remove. Instead you have grown accustomed to carrying around that weight. You regard carrying that weight as just part of the "real world." But you REALLY need to be washed from your sins and forgiven. The blemish upon your character and stain upon your soul as a record before God are quite real.
We have all sinned and come short of the glory of God. We all are in need of real forgiveness because of real guilt because of real transgressions against the law of God.
And we all have a deep need to really be joined to God because Satan is having a heyday ruining your humanity for the eternal kingdom of God.
Cont. below
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16 Feb 14
Cont. with LemonJello
Sorry, I'm not convinced. And I have already provided detailed reasons why I think your moral view does not conduce to -- indeed, is not even really compatible with -- moral maturation.
That is ok. These things take time. Sometimes a long life time before one's eyes are opened.
But I assure you, any moral maturation you advertize to me apart from God is not as beautiful as Jesus. You can have it. Give me union with the Father. Give me being conformed to the image of the Firstborn Son of God.
"The road to hell is paved with good intentions."
Again, transition from heteronomy to autonomy is requisite; whereas your moral view is inherently heteronomous in structure. If you are interested in more background on this, one of the seminal works would be
I think that oneness and unity among human beings is testimony of a prevailing morality. And in the church life we have oneness among different cultures in Christ.
There are many cities around the planet where I could call on the phone and say "I am a brother in Jesus Christ" and I know that I would be received in love, in hospitality even though I was in a foreign culture.
It is not just our theory or philosophy. It has been our experience and practice. The morality that brings people together from vastly different cultures is the morality we possess in living with Jesus Christ as Lord.
Thanks for your thoughts though, interesting as they were.
The philosophy you espouse does not compare to the Son of God.
And nothing you could offer me from your "real world" can compare with the preciousness and worth of Jesus Christ.
13 Mar 14
Originally posted by sonshipSonship - how would you approach a meeting with 3 other gentlemen; all
equally sincere as you but from different religions?
To take it a step further; let's imagine that the other 3 gentlemen have exactly
the same conviction as you; education as you; intelligence as you and
personality as you.
What would you say?
13 Mar 14
Originally posted by sonshipThe difference is that you have to be responsible of your own life. You cannot rely on anyone else if you do something stupid. You don't have to fear some supernatural punish, only punishment of this world. You can think for yourself and not according to some earthly authority who says he has the truth on his hand and you will go to hell if you don't believe just as he (because it's most often a he) does.
Now if God does not exist then what difference does it make that anyone lived, anything existed, how we behaved, what we "lived" for ?
Honestly. What difference does it make ?
It's like you being a children, having your parents to say what you should do and what not to do. Do you like this situation? At some point you move from home taking your own responsability of your life, chosing yourself who to marry, where to live, where to job, not having any need to ask your parents first whatever you chose.
Perhaps as a young specie, in a young civilization, we needed this authority, some religion to keep us on the right track. It didn't work well. War was raging everywhere. With the bible in one hand, chanting "god is with us", weapons in the other hand, slaughtering the ones with an other view of spiritual matters.
We know more now. There is no need for religions. We are adult, as a specie, as a civilization. We can chose better than ever, but we do our mistakes. We don't have to blame god for tornadoes, floodings, earthquakes, epidemias. We know why it happens and god is not the reason.
If you want a grown up to hold a hand, if you don't feel an urge to think for yourself, if you are terrified for the responsibilities of life - then you should keep on with your religion. If it makes you feel better, if you cannot find any meaning in your life without your god - then don't leave your religion.
But if you want to be free - then chose the alternative.
13 Mar 14
1 edit
Originally posted by sonshipWhat if we were destined to evolve into gods?
The time is distant, distant into the future. The stars have all died out. The galaxies have expanded into the black of a cold dead universe. Nothing left but black holes, ashes, darkness spreading out forever.
Earth is long gone. Man and whatever evolved after man is long gone. Nothing but the cold blackness of empty nothingness as the cosmos spreads ou ...[text shortened]... t difference does it make that you lived ?
What difference does it make how you lived ? [/b]
Beings so powerful they can make their OWN universes....
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13 Mar 14
3 edits
What if we were destined to evolve into gods?
Beings so powerful they can make their OWN universes....
Altogether now, 1, 2, 3 - "You Don't Understand Evolution!".
Come now sonhouse. What do you mean "destined" to evolve into gods?
You know good and well evolution has no goal and no purpose.
Evolution doesn't "destine" anything for anything. It has NO GOAL, NO DESTINY.
I'm gonna report you to the Infidel's website to send the Evo police after you. You're slipping.
Okay, seriously now. No more ribbing.
Some viewpoint of evolution could possibly conceive of it moving towards a goal of making super survivable, super intelligent life forms.
You're thinking of some thing like Q on Star Trek. But this is definitely not the typical evolution theory used to clobber Christians like me over the head.
Those beings would not be you. You'd be long long long LONG gone.
So what do you care ?
Now in the New Testament Jesus will take you and transform you into His own image. That's something you could enjoy once you were saved by Him.
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13 Mar 14
3 edits
Originally posted by FabianFnas
The difference is that you have to be responsible of your own life.
I have that in Jesus Christ - responsibility. Just like when your automobile has "power steering" you still have responsibility to control the car.
If you ever read Galatians chapter five you'll see that Paul listed among the fruits of the Holy Spirit "self control."
You cannot rely on anyone else if you do something stupid. You don't have to fear some supernatural punish, only punishment of this world.
I don't think there is anything wrong with multiple motivations. Hey, I love my wife so I act right. I also fear messing up and getting into trouble.
Some pure love of following God with some supplemental concern for judgment beyond this earthly existence is Okay.
You do some things with more than just one motivation. Don't you?
You can think for yourself and not according to some earthly authority who says he has the truth on his hand and you will go to hell if you don't believe just as he (because it's most often a he) does.
The hell matter again. I think it is perfectly within God's responsibility to warn you because He Made you and Designed you, that the existence you THINK will be pleasant your really will not like at all.
The person who craves to be completely free from God in any and every way, can get eventually what he wants. But we can't blame God for warning you "Its not going to be as good as you think it will be."
He made. He knows. And He takes the responsibility to inform us that we're not going to like such a place - (completely free from God).
Besides, the Son of God already went to "hell" as a damnation, a curse and a punishment from divine justice, that I might not have to go.
It's like you being a children, having your parents to say what you should do and what not to do. Do you like this situation? At some point you move from home taking your own responsability of your life, chosing yourself who to marry, where to live, where to job, not having any need to ask your parents first whatever you chose.
I do not want to be independent from God in the way you suggest. I am sorry. But there is this man - Jesus Christ. He said He did NOTHING without the Father. He spoke from the Father. He walked from the Father. He talked from the Father. He healed, raised the dead, calmed the storm, and did many both miraculous and non-miraculous wonders because He lived in oneness with the Father.
The life of harmony, union, and incorporation with God impresses me more than any kind of "independence" from God you might advertize.
Even His final victory over the tomb was because of dependence upon His Father.
Now, I'll tell you what I really think. I think that if the phrase "serve God" fills the human heart with dread or fear or discomfort in any way, that human being is under some sort of deception.
I think as long as one shudders at the thought of "doing the will of God" that mind is under some amount of deception.
If the phrase "the WILL OF GOD" makes you squirm or want to turn away for fear of coercion or slavery, you are deceived.
When one gets a glimmer of the truth, that "the will of God" means everything your being desires in eternal life, meaning, glory, and pure love with righteousness, then I think some amount of self deception is passing away from your mind.
The last two chapters of the Bible, with the new heaven and new earth and no more death, no more sorrow, no more pain, no more tears and eternal life is "the WILL of God."
So your advertized independence from God and the will of God is what drove Adam into plunging the world into the curse it fell into. So, I do not seek independence from the Source of life.
Perhaps as a young specie, in a young civilization, we needed this authority, some religion to keep us on the right track. It didn't work well. War was raging everywhere. With the bible in one hand, chanting "god is with us", weapons in the other hand, slaughtering the ones with an other view of spiritual matters.
This is not a statement to me on the unreality of God. This is a statement on the depravity of man. That is his tendency to want to dignify his worst sinfulness with the highest and most good banner.
We can elsewhere talk of what gracious acts man has enjoyed because someone, somewhere was under the influence of the Bible and the Bible's God.
We know more now. There is no need for religions. We are adult, as a specie, as a civilization. We can chose better than ever, but we do our mistakes. We don't have to blame god for tornadoes, floodings, earthquakes, epidemias. We know why it happens and god is not the reason.
One of the aspects of health is that when something is wrong with your body, you often has some discomfort to remind you that something is not right.
God, allows some things to go wrong like natural calamities that we would not forget that paradise is lost. Something is wrong. remember?
If you had a headache it might be a warning to you that you should not disregard. SOMETHING is wrong somewhere.
God in His wisdom, told Adam that thorns and thistles would come up to him and he would eat bread in the sweat of his face. This expanded and extrapolated means that the world will have occasional reminders that man LOST something of a paradise existence since sin came in, since he desired to be independent from his Creator.
At the same time we see places in the Bible and in the New Testament where men, (especially the Son of Man) was invested with deputy authority to control and stop these calamities. This was not miscellaneous happenings. They were indications and reminders of what man in harmony with His Creator can exercise dominion over.
The book of Hebrews speaks of having "tasted of the powers of the coming age."
Next time you notice Jesus in the Gospels stilling the storm, walking on the waves. commanding the disease to be healed, you might think of these manifestations of the normal God centered humanity exercising dominion over creation and expression the glory and image of God.
"TASTED" of the powers of the coming age means that Christians here and there in maturity foretaste some of this dominion even before the millennial kingdom comes.
If you want a grown up to hold a hand, if you don't feel an urge to think for yourself, if you are terrified for the responsibilities of life - then you should keep on with your religion. If it makes you feel better, if you cannot find any meaning in your life without your god - then don't leave your religion.
This is your caricature which gives you comfort. I lived independent from the Father and left many offenses and damaged and hurt and used people along that way. You do also.
Your living "free" from God is accumulating for you a pile of transgressions, sins, iniquities, exploitations, riping offs, canivings, crooked schemes, hurtful words and deeds as well as twisted desires and thoughts which damage you and some people who contact you.
If you think Christ died on His cross in vain and for no reason, you'll be woken up some day. He died for the reason of saving you from your real and actual guilt before God. This guilt you think is non-existent.
In His love He knew it was NOT non-existent. And He made provision for you at Calvary.
In short God is very very willing to forgive. But He will NOT forgive in a way in which the forgiven does not realize that it COSTS God something.
Redemption is a profound matter. And I do not presume to explain it completely. But it includes the meaning, that God will only forgive us in a manner which demonstrates to us that He incurred loss.
Think of it this way. If I slap you on the face, and you completely forgive me, that means you embrace the loss to you of that injury unto yourself.
The redemptive death of Christ is God's insisted way that we KNOW that He took into Himself the injury of our sins.
But if you want to be free - then chose the alternative.
"You shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free."
14 Mar 14
Originally posted by sonshipYou give me a shipload full of arguments why you should be considered full responsible of your own life. But the bible doesn't say so. You are a sheep in need of a pastor. You pry to your father. You let your life in Him. and so on, and so on.The difference is that you have to be responsible of your own life.
I have that in Jesus Christ - responsibility. Just like when your automobile has "power steering" you still have responsibility to control the car.
If you ever read [b]Galatians chapter five you'll see that Paul listed among the fruits of the Holy Spirit "self ...[text shortened]... lternative. [/quote]
[b] "You shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free." [/b]
Christians pray to god to be cured of cancer, instead of going to a doctor. Christians handle snakes to prove that He is watching over them. There is always inshallah everyhwere and everytime. Christians are like children, not knowing what to do without a god. Finding the life meaningless without Him.
And that's my point. That's my answer to OP. Childrens life is meaningless without parents, as christians life has not meaning without god. I'm glad that I am not christian, because I see so much meaning in living. God is not needed to have meaning.
14 Mar 14
Fabian,
You typed
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Christians pray to god to be cured of cancer, instead of going to a doctor. Christians handle snakes to prove that He is watching over them. There is always inshallah everyhwere and everytime. Christians are like children, not knowing what to do without a god. Finding the life meaningless without Him.
And that's my point. That's my answer to OP. Childrens life is meaningless without parents, as christians life has not meaning without god. I'm glad that I am not christian, because I see so much meaning in living. God is not needed to have meaning.
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Christians may want to have faith in God to heal them. However, God may use the knowledge and treatments of doctors to provide health restoration. Christians are human and can have failings of their own. But don't discount their faith in God just because they have it. Christians can be subject to ignorance just as unbelievers. They are not immune.
As for some people, not finding value in a sinful and vain life, sure. You don't think that your life is vain or sinful, perhaps. But even so, God offers gifts and promises in this life and the next(which includes eternal life). God is not just meant for this life's value, but for eternity, as well, which will be even more grand.
Why do you think this life has so much value? What is so great about this life that isn't surpassed by all that God offers. Do you desire to have eternal death just because you want to do what you desire in this life? If you live to be 102 years old, what is so great about 102 years against eternity?
All of the pleasures of this life are vain because they will end. But eternity will not end. God in the bible offers you so much more!
Don't let your desires for this life take you into a future of hopelessness and separation from God. Besides, what makes you think that you can not have meaning in this life too with God as your God?
Solomon had riches and 1000 wives and sought to please himself in all manner of ways if I remember correctly in the bible. He had wisdom which God gave him. He could do many things he desired to do because God let him.
Do you want women, money, success, family, power, sex, superiority, things to own, vacations, sports, knowledge, wisdom, understanding, and other things. In the end of your human life, it is all vain. It will get you no where eternally. When you die you will take nothing with you.
The Egyption Pharaohs may have thought that they could take their wealth and servants with them into an after life. But they had no proof of that. They came into this earth without their say so and they went out into an afterlife without having say so where they were put.
For you it is the same. For me it is the same. You and I don't have that control. You need to realize that you don't even have control over what will happen to you in the next 5 minutes. You could die or be put into a coma. You could have stroke and be paralyzed. How many different medical things can go wrong with you without your consent?
What makes you think you are promised any more "human life enjoyment?" What is so wonderful about "now" that you are willing to take a chance on giving up your eternal joy?
Children can do without parents. Others can fill that vacancy. But with God, there is no other that can take his place. No one else can offer you eternal joy.
Humans are weaklings. Life is vain, no matter how much you gain in your possible next 102 years or more of life. Don't you ever prepare for the future in this life? Why not prepare for your future in the after life? Do you think that no Christians have joy about all their gifts and their forgiveness? You are not looking at the right people.
Please quit looking at these hurtful people in your life. Go away from them and find others who are truly joyful in Christ and all that he offers.
King James Version
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Matthew 16: 26
For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
Ephesians 3: 17 - 19
That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,
May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.
14 Mar 14
Fabian,
Here is what Paul wrote about in Romans 8 of the King James Version of the bible. And he certainly did not live his life in boredom or lack of joy. His christian life was hard among humans treating him the way they did. However, he sought to last for Christ until his end.
No matter what this life can offer you, it is definitely out-matched by God's offerings. The true Christian can be hard, or at least, not easy. But don't think that is lacks joy, peace, and satisfaction.
Romans 8: 31 - 39
What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.