If no God - What Meaning ?

Originally posted by sonship
Rank Outsider

I will answer him honestly.

The answer that the man gave was very honest.

He said he could not tell him about God because he did not know God himself. That was very honest. He had no experience of God. What could he say?

I find the answer sad but honest. Fellowship and communion with God was available to him b ...[text shortened]... Jesus ahead of your son. The fellowship you both will have in the Holy Spirit will be wonderful.

That is touching. You are in a peculiar position. And your honesty is notable.

its not peculiar. its what any good parent would do. its wrong to push your opinions on children. children should be given access to all political, religious, art, music not just the ones the parent loves. i wonder how many theists on here can say they gave their children equal, un-biased access to other religions, beliefs.

Originally posted by stellspalfie
[b]That is touching. You are in a peculiar position. And your honesty is notable.

its not peculiar. its what any good parent would do. its wrong to push your opinions on children. children should be given access to all political, religious, art, music not just the ones the parent loves.

You surely will give children much of your views and opinions.

When things happen on the street as you walk with them, they look up into your face to see what you feel about it. Daddies and Mommies always have taught their opinions to their children.

Around the ages of 14 and up you won't have to worry about them taking your opinion on everything. Around 16 or so you can expect them to take another opinion then that of their parents, on general principle. So while you have some influence you surely teach them what you think.

This can be done while respecting their own mind. But everyone else is going to try to teach them their opinion. They are your kids. You might as well be their first teachers.

More than your opinion, they will learn from what you are and how you yourself live as an example.

i wonder how many theists on here can say they gave their children equal, un-biased access to other religions, beliefs.

How many anti-theists and God haters gave their kids unbiased access to the Good News of Jesus Christ ?

You can be definite without being narrow. I could clearly explain to my kids how Islam was different from the New Testament. I could objectively describe other faiths to them. And I would want them to know about those beliefs in such a pluralistic world.

All truth is God's truth.

Originally posted by stellspalfie
imagine your child lies dying in a hospital bed, he turns to you in his last moments and says - 'tell me about allah'...............what you gonna say sonship, see you have a problem there!

imagine your child lies dying in a hospital bed, he turns to you in his last moments and says - 'tell me about allah'...............what you gonna say sonship, see you have a problem there!

Bahai, Judaism, Islam, all believe in God the supreme Being and Creator along with the Christian faith.

That there is God is truth. All truth is God's truth. In that respect that Islam teaches of one God, to that extent they teach a truth.

I have not had the situation you describe, about asking concerning allah. But I would speak to him, read to him, pray with him concerning the words of the Son of God - Jesus.

But you see, I would not wait for them to be dying. The importance of knowing about Jesus, and better still knowing Jesus Himself, is not something that should be postponed until leukemia.

Everyday of perfect physical health and relative happiness is a day to know Jesus Christ.

I suppose the short answer would be "Son, I don't know Allah as the Quran talks about Allah. But I do know Jesus and God as you know I have told you all these years."

From Jesus Christ - God incarnate back to Allah is a step backwards. For "the Word became flesh ..." (John 1:14)

Originally posted by divegeester

Isn't this the theme of eccesiasties?

Yes.

Vanity of vanities - all things are vanity "under the sun". That is apart from God's eternal purpose, His salvation, His plan. It is all chasing after the wind of vanity.

How about we start a thread on Ecclesiastes? You could help me understand some of the more subtle utterances in that marvelous book.

Originally posted by stellspalfie
[b]That is touching. You are in a peculiar position. And your honesty is notable.

i wonder how many theists on here can say they gave their children equal, un-biased access to other religions, beliefs.[/b]

its not peculiar. its what any good parent would do. its wrong to push your opinions on children. children should be given access to all political, religious, art, music not just the ones the parent loves.

Some people have not grasped that God is not a religion.

They ask the question perhaps like this - "Define God. Give three examples."

Your taste in music or opinion in politics does not touch the uniqueness of the nature of God. Your appreciation of different styles of cooking or clothing or varied political views do not approach the uniqueness of the being of God.

God is the ground of the being of all other things.

Romans 4:17 - "God ... who gives life to the dead and calls things not being as being."

God is distinct from all other things in existence. God is not like the brand of cereal or style of shoes. God is that Uncreated and Eternal Person.

There are all kinds of lives. Behind all the various kinds of lives there is an uncreated Divine Life as a Person. Jesus called Him "heavenly Father". He had no beginning and will have no end. He is indestructible, holy, distinct from all other things, perfect in righteousness, ultimate in majesty and glory. Yet He is small enough to fit into our beings.

Originally posted by sonship

imagine your child lies dying in a hospital bed, he turns to you in his last moments and says - 'tell me about allah'...............what you gonna say sonship, see you have a problem there!

Bahai, Judaism, Islam, all believe in God the supreme Being and Creator along with the Christian faith.

That there is God is truth. All truth ...[text shortened]... incarnate back to Allah is a step backwards. For [b]"the Word became flesh ..." (John 1:14) [/b]

I have not had the situation you describe, about asking concerning allah. But I would speak to him, read to him, pray with him concerning the words of the Son of God - Jesus.

so you would ignore your dying childs wish and teach him want you believe. unbelievable, almost as shocking as you shoving a homophobic god down your gay brothers throat as he lays there dying.

Originally posted by stellspalfie
[b]I have not had the situation you describe, about asking concerning allah. But I would speak to him, read to him, pray with him concerning the words of the Son of God - Jesus.

so you would ignore your dying childs wish and teach him want you believe. unbelievable, almost as shocking as you shoving a homophobic god down your gay brothers throat as he lays there dying.[/b]

"Shoving" is your word.

Coercing, forcing, jamming, shoving, these are all your caricatures of Christian love.

"Shoving a homophobic god down your gay brothers throat" is your ignorance of the relationship I had with my brother.

There was nothing "gay" about rotting away with AIDs.

I volunteered to say something here, about God being a God of resurrection to my brother. Did you hear in that any mention of the topic of sexual attraction ?

I spoke of life and death and resurrection. Homosexuality at this point was beside the point. It was beyond that.

You come off like you are more tolerant. I don't think you are necessarily more tolerant. Show me someone who believes in something strongly. Then we can determine how tolerant he is of other people's beliefs.

Do not come to me wishy washy, standing for nothing, sloppy about any and all behavior and try to impress me that this is being "tolerant." This could be just cowardice to stand for anything. But to dignify the non-committal apathy you slap on to it a "tolerance" label.

Show me that you actually believe something strongly, and would die for it. Then we can see if you are tolerant toward others who believe differently.

It could be that some people are so prone to drift down the current of the latest trend like so many dead leaves in a stream. They cannot stand for anything. They think to be a floating jelly fish always going along with the latest social move is being so tolerant.

My responsibility before God is to teach my child the truth.
It is not to be a moral jelly fish of relativism behind a phony mask of tolerance.

Before my child or my brother breaths a last breath, my desire is to live and speak something I know as truth.

So while you throw the charge of "homophobic" at me, I wonder if you have a phobia against to stand for anything other than your atheistic relativism masquerading as tolerance.

Originally posted by sonship

so you would ignore your dying childs wish and teach him want [b]you believe. unbelievable, almost as shocking as you shoving a homophobic god down your gay brothers throat as he lays there dying.[/b]

"Shoving" is your word.

Coercing, forcing, jamming, shoving, these are all your caricatures of Christian love.

"Shoving a ho ...[text shortened]... e a phobia to stand for anything other than your atheistic relativism masquerading as tolerance.[/b]

It is not to be a moral jelly fish of relativism behind a phony mask of tolerance.

if you are going to throw this kind of comment around, im sure you can back it up by explaining why my tolerance is phony. can you?

i apologize for suggesting you 'shoved' your christianity upon your brother. i have no idea what it meant to your brother, so it was an unfair word to use. i retract it.

Originally posted by sonship

so you would ignore your dying childs wish and teach him want [b]you believe. unbelievable, almost as shocking as you shoving a homophobic god down your gay brothers throat as he lays there dying.[/b]

"Shoving" is your word.

Coercing, forcing, jamming, shoving, these are all your caricatures of Christian love.

"Shoving a ho ...[text shortened]... ia against to stand for anything other than your atheistic relativism masquerading as tolerance.[/b]

Ahem. I am not a moral relativist, Many atheists are not.

And please stop confusing morality and meaning.

Originally posted by sonship

so you would ignore your dying childs wish and teach him want [b]you believe. unbelievable, almost as shocking as you shoving a homophobic god down your gay brothers throat as he lays there dying.[/b]

"Shoving" is your word.

Coercing, forcing, jamming, shoving, these are all your caricatures of Christian love.

"Shoving a ho ...[text shortened]... ia against to stand for anything other than your atheistic relativism masquerading as tolerance.[/b]

There was nothing "gay" about rotting away with AIDs

true.

You come off like you are more tolerant. I don't think you are necessarily more tolerant. Show me someone who believes in something strongly. Then we can determine how tolerant he is of other people's beliefs.

i believe in many things strongly. i am very tolerant of other beliefs.


Do not come to me wishy washy, standing for nothing,

standing for nothing? you are coming off childish.

non-committal apathy you slap on to it a "tolerance" label.

haa!! what am i not committing to? what am i apathetic about??

and would die for it.

i would risk my life for you if you were in danger.

latest trend

trend? what trend?

Originally posted by sonship

so you would ignore your dying childs wish and teach him want [b]you believe. unbelievable, almost as shocking as you shoving a homophobic god down your gay brothers throat as he lays there dying.[/b]

"Shoving" is your word.

Coercing, forcing, jamming, shoving, these are all your caricatures of Christian love.

"Shoving a ho ...[text shortened]... ia against to stand for anything other than your atheistic relativism masquerading as tolerance.[/b]

It's bizarre the way you seem to imply blanketly that atheists are relativists. Personally, I don't know many atheists who take relativism seriously, and relativist views are the ones that basically get laughed at by everyone in ethics classes. Do you have any actual grounds for implying that others in this discussion are committed to relativism? Just because one thinks meaning has inherently subjective dimension and may be specific to, or created by, an individual does not make him or her a proponent of "relativism" which has other connotations.

It's good that you wish to impart truths to your child, since for inquisitive minds like ours, truth is generally a worthy end unto itself in belief-formation. I wouldn't blame you for seeking to speak truth per se. But a deeper hope should be that your child will develop into a good cognizer in his or her own right, such that he or she can reliably come to truths on their own, as well as properly internalize and analyze the testimony of others (including yours). Something similar goes even moreso for the subject of meaning, since meaning has to resonate from within.

Originally posted by LemonJello
It's bizarre the way you seem to imply blanketly that atheists are relativists. Personally, I don't know many atheists who take relativism seriously, and relativist views are the ones that basically get laughed at by everyone in ethics classes. Do you have any actual grounds for implying that others in this discussion are committed to relativism? Just ...[text shortened]... similar goes even moreso for the subject of meaning, since meaning has to resonate from within.

I have started a new thread on the topic of relative vs objective vs absolute ect.

I would value your input and thoughts.

But a deeper hope should be that your child will develop into a good cognizer in his or her own right, such that he or she can reliably come to truths on their own, as well as properly internalize and analyze the testimony of others (including yours). Something similar goes even moreso for the subject of meaning, since meaning has to resonate from within.

This is why early I speak to them about God the Creator. Because being thankful to God is important to the health of the mind.

Paul traces the downward decline of human beings in first not recognizing God as Creator and not being thankful.

Also the sooner one learns to confess their sins and be cleansed from them the more they can save their minds from crooked rationalization and darkness in the mind.

This was my personal experience and the teaching of the book of Romans -

"Because though they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God or thank Him, but rather became vain in their reasonings, and their heart, lacking understanding, was darkened.

Professing to be wise, they became fools ..." (Romans 1:21,22a)

Solomon also advised young people that should remember God their Creator in youth before evil days arrive with growing older.

"Remember also yur Creator in the days of your youth, before the evil days come and the years draw near when you will say, I have no pleasure in them."

There is an innocence of youth which is the main time to regard that God is our Creator. As the temptation to sin grows more and more, the devil's enticement to discard the truthful acknowledgment for the Creator God will also increase.

Then the conscience becomes darkened. This is like a glass being gradually covered with soot. A smoky film of the filth of sin after sin darkens over the youthful conscience. To live with oneself and to quiet the conscience one may reject the knowledge of God as a relief.

The Christian parent preemptively teaches the child about the heavenly Father and the Creator, plus His gracious forgiveness. All these things will save the mind and the heart from the corruption that is spreading like gangrene in our modern world.

This is probably the reason that Jesus taught that the kingdom of God people can never graduate from coming to Him as little children.

"And He called a little child to Him and stood him in their midst and said, Truly I say to you, Unless you turn and become like little children, you shall by no means enbter into the kingdom of the heavens.

Therefore who will humble himself like this little child, he is the greatest in the kingdom of the heavens." (Matthew 18:2-4)

Originally posted by sonship
[quote] But a deeper hope should be that your child will develop into a good cognizer in his or her own right, such that he or she can reliably come to truths on their own, as well as properly internalize and analyze the testimony of others (including yours). Something similar goes even moreso for the subject of meaning, since meaning has to resonate from w ...[text shortened]... like this little child, he is the greatest in the kingdom of the heavens." (Matthew 18:2-4) [/b]

This is why early I speak to them about God the Creator. Because being thankful to God is important to the health of the mind.

I seriously doubt that, since lots of healthy minds do not have sufficient reasons to think God exists in the first place. I do not understand why you think this approach would be effective at conducing to the healthy development of your child's cognitive abilities. I would think one key would be to foster and sustain critical thought and healthy questioning attitudes that converge on appreciation for justificatory considerations, etc, and it's not clear to me how this approach supports that.

This is probably the reason that Jesus taught that the kingdom of God people can never graduate from coming to Him as little children.

Okay, this clearly signals that you are confused. The point, obviously enough, would be for your child to develop and mature into a cognitively rich adult -- not for your child to retain childlike deliberations well into adulthood. That's pretty much exactly the opposite of what you should be trying to foster.

Originally posted by LemonJello

This is why early I speak to them about God the Creator. Because being thankful to God is important to the health of the mind.

I seriously doubt that, since lots of healthy minds do not have sufficient reasons to think God exists in the first place. I do not understand why you think this approach would be effective at conducing to the h ...[text shortened]... into adulthood. That's pretty much exactly the opposite of what you should be trying to foster.

I seriously doubt that, since lots of healthy minds do not have sufficient reasons to think God exists in the first place.

You have witnessed voices on this Forum who seem not to have the clarity to understand that a male is for a female, and a female is for a male.

Physiologically they compliment each other. It is in the "plumbing" of the way they are designed.

The anus is designed to dispel waste.
The penis is designed in addition to eliminating waste, to impart the seeds of life.

Some great intellectual energy has been exerted here to rationalize that the seeds of life can be imparted to the organ for dispelling death, waste. Those who see in this trend a growing anarchy of casting off self control and common sense are quickly labelled "Phobic."

The function of imparting life should go with the organ to receive and grow life not the organ to dispel death and waste.

"Professing to be wise, they became fools"

It also says - " ... they became vain in their reasonings, and their heart, lacking understanding, was darkened."

You say you know many healthy minded people who do not believe in God.
I know what you mean. But you and I are not the final judge about that.

And we have been as people in a room full of garlic chewers. The stench when you first enter is powerful. But if you stay there long enough you get use to it. Eventually, you are so accustomed to the smell of garlic that you no longer notice it.

Some discussion by these healthy minds you admire have been like this. They have become befuddled. They have become as in a drunken stupor, unaware of the twisted logic they defend. That is in something so natural and elementary as the complementary nature of the male and female human design.

That is one example of vain thinking from a mind that is being darkened.

sonship:

This is probably the reason that Jesus taught that the kingdom of God people can never graduate from coming to Him as little children.

LJ:
Okay, this clearly signals that you are confused. The point, obviously enough, would be for your child to develop and mature into a cognitively rich adult -- not for your child to retain childlike deliberations well into adulthood. That's pretty much exactly the opposite of what you should be trying to foster.

Crucial to human growth is attention before God to the human conscience. I am not sure your "cognitively rich adult" has anything to do with being sensative to when sins need to be repented of and forsaken in the power and grace of the Holy Spirit.

Jesus Christ, there is our "cognitively rich adult" model in whose light my family stands. And to walk by His Spirit is the skill that we labored to impart to our kids.

I took them by the hand and taught them how to touch the Holy Spirit. I took them by the hand and showed them the importance of confession of their sins to be cleansed from defilement.

While they were in my care I acted as everything depends upon my faithfulness. Once they reach a certain age then I take my hand off and pray as everything depends upon God's faithfulness.

And we have nieces and nephews and children in the congregation to which we labor over in the same caring way. We hope to help them develop the taste for God and the holiness of divine life in Christ.

We are building God's kingdom. Maybe you are only concerned with man's kingdom. But man's godlesss world is passing away. He who does the will of God abides forever.

We are all children when it comes to the heavenly Father.

Don't worry about my kids. They are all colleague graduates and doing professionally quite well.

We prayed for my children before they were born. I asked God for wisdom to raise them while they were still in their mother's womb. And God was faithful.