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Originally posted by sonshipMeaning requires a mind.
Now I would really like to know what difference any kind of life makes if there is no God. I don't know to start a new thread. Maybe, I'll just ask it here.
Now if God does not exist then what difference does it make that anyone lived, anything existed, how we behaved, what we "lived" for ?
Honestly. What difference does it make ?
If there are no minds there is no meaning.
WE have minds, and thus WE can provide meaning.
If/when we [and any of our sentient descendants or creations] cease to exist
then there will cease to be any meaning... But nobody will be around to care.
[ignoring for simplicity the possibility of alien sentience's]
While we exist we can give ourselves [and each other] meaning.
After we die we no longer exist and thus no longer care.
You keep asking 'what difference does it make' that we existed...
And I ask to whom?
To worry about whether something makes a difference or not you need a being
or beings for it to make a difference to.
To my mind this is a stupid question, albeit a very frequently asked one.
You start with the [correct] premise that we live in a universe without a god.
And then ask if anything matters in such a universe.
I respond by asking "would you have a preference to live in comfort and good health, or in
screaming agony while being tortured?"
[taking it as a given that we are currently living in a universe without any gods. So you are looking inside yourself right now and asking yourself if you right now would prefer a life of comfort and health over torture]
Because if you have a preference [and I would be astounded if you honestly claimed you didn't
care] then what happens now to you today matters, to you and everyone who cares about
you.
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Originally posted by googlefudge
Meaning requires a mind.
If there are no minds there is no meaning.
WE have minds, and thus WE can provide meaning.
If this is true then meaning is a microscopic speck on the vast timeline of the universe. The "WE" human minds are a mere single snowflake on the ocean. In this case meaning was long absent, arose for an instant, will likely vanish in soon future instant in human extinction, and meaning reverts back to non-existence for eons left as the universe runs down, spreads out.
In this case time is overwhelmingly hostile to minds and obliterating against meaning. For "WE" the meaning makers are a brief snowflake melting on the ocean of time. Yet what in the universe was greater than matter that somehow was able to become mind - conscious of its own existence, contemplating its surroundings?
If/when we [and any of our sentient descendants or creations] cease to exist then there will cease to be any meaning... But nobody will be around to care.[ignoring for simplicity the possibility of alien sentience's]
The rise of minds for this brief moment before extinction in the expanse of time, you say, is not because of mind or meaning. Yet DNA is information. And information must indicate mind as the code of these English letters convey meaning.
Then if you believe in evolution you have information bearing DNA strongly suggesting planning intelligence, by process gradually working its way up to "WE" or any other "sentient beings".
If behind the code of information in DNA there is mind then there was meaning for millions of years (in your own theory) before "WE" the human meaning makers arose.
While we exist we can give ourselves [and each other] meaning.
After we die we no longer exist and thus no longer care.
But you agree that there is no real objective meaning to life so we have to invent some by a leap of faith to live happily in an overwhelmingly hostile to mind/meaning universe.
No objective final arbitrator will referee whether each meaning makers invention was worthy or not. All were equally valid regardless of the consequences it had on a neighbor.
Joseph Mendel's self made meaning is not better and no worse than David Livingston's self made meaning. In fact the minds of cock roaches (if they have any) are no less significant than the minds of the United Nations. The baboon's meaning and the professor's meaning bear no qualitative difference if there is no God, no Judge of minds and meanings.
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You keep asking 'what difference does it make' that we existed...
And I ask to whom?
To worry about whether something makes a difference or not you need a being or beings for it to make a difference to.
As long as we exist in this brief moment we ask ourselves "What difference does it make?"
To not worry about what it will mean to a dead person gives rise to the murderer to snuff out another life and shrug "What difference does it make to him? I have killed him and he is no more."
Who is to judge me if I eliminate you so that my meaning will prevail ? It will no longer mean anything to you. You're dead.
To my mind this is a stupid question, albeit a very frequently asked one.
You start with the [correct] premise that we live in a universe without a god.
And then ask if anything matters in such a universe.
You assume what is not real to you is not real to anyone else either.
Your atheist counterpart ringwett said Atheism makes no propositional claims. Your approach is not his as you make the truth claim - "we live in a universe without a god."
I notice that you do agree that without God there is no real objective meaning to anyone's life. You just have to make something up for this brief moment. That is WE and the flies around the pig in the barnyard.
Since Plato, Aristotle, Socrates and the days of many philosophers these questions have been contemplated, yet you dismiss them as "stupid". This seems a ad hom on a large scale.
We must tell our children that it is stupid to ask about life and death and meaning. The cows don't ask. The birds don't ask. So why should we human beings ask ? We don't ask because we don't want to be called "stupid" by you ?
To say to ask what difference my life makes is part of my total humanity. Suppressing the quest to know the meaning of my life is to deny an aspect of my humanity.
I respond by asking "would you have a preference to live in comfort and good health, or in screaming agony while being tortured?" [hidden] [taking it as a given that we are currently living in a universe without any gods. So you are looking inside yourself right now and asking yourself if you right now would prefer a life of comfort and health over torture]
Of course I would rather be comfortable. But animals in the zoo are made as comfortable as practically permissible.
I do not want to settle just for a comfortable zoo existence. As a human being with a spiritual component to my total humanity, thanks for the comfort outwardly, but I still seek some inward comfort in asking "Why then am I here ?"
You seem to be saying "Be not in suffering and don't ask anything more."
Because if you have a preference [and I would be astounded if you honestly claimed you didn't care] then what happens now to you today matters, to you and everyone who cares about
you.
Thanks for your concern that I do not suffer. But face it, some of the most comfortable people outwardly are the also the most in sorrow for inward emptiness.
I am reminded of one very rich Queen of England whose words on her death bed were "All my possessions for a moment of time."
19 Jan 14
Originally posted by sonshipTwo things:
I would not just be with God. We will not just be with God. We will be God in man.
WE will be man and God incorporated together. Jesus Christ - mass produced and expanded. That is what He has in mind.
1 I have no idea what this means.
2 You have not explained why this gives meaning to anything.
19 Jan 14
Originally posted by sonship[b]Meaning requires a mind.
If there are no minds there is no meaning.
WE have minds, and thus WE can provide meaning.
If this is true then meaning is a microscopic speck on the vast timeline of the universe. The "WE" human minds are a mere single snowflake on the ocean. In this case meaning was long absent, arose for an inst ...[text shortened]... sor's meaning bear no qualitative difference if there is no God, no Judge of minds and meanings.[/b]Sorry, you keep suggesting that I need to invent some kind of lie to keep myself going from day to day, stop slipping into despair etc.
This is not true.
I have not invented anything. I accept the world as I believe it is.
And if I were to accept your view of 'meaning' (which is difficult as you don't know what your meaning of 'meaning' is, but I will make a best guess), then I would accept that everything that I am and do is 'meaningless'.
And I don't find that at all bleak, or in need of some invention to get through the day.
So stop telling me what I think.
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Originally posted by Rank outsider
Two things:
1 I have no idea what this means.
2 You have not explained why this gives meaning to anything.
For #1 the point is taken that I wrote something which you do not understand.
As to your second point, oh no, in this thread the atheists have the burden to do some explaining. My question - "If no God - What meaning ?"
I want a little more time to see what the atheists come up with. I know you'd like to shift it and start peppering me with demands for explanations of Christian theology. Not just yet.
The atheists have the main burden here.
Then what does any of human life mean ?
So far most have admitted that there is no meaning other than what each person can temporarily make up for themselves.
I agree that we practically can hardly live as if we have no meaning.
But there are problems with this questionable chaotic free-for-all.
It is an absurd circus. And the moral anarchy of it goes unjudged.
Ie. Adolf Hitler, Caligula, Charles Manson, Timothy McVeigh, etc.
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20 Jan 14
3 edits
Originally posted by Pudgenik
Sonship, i have a question for you, just a point to ponder.
God lives in me and i in Him. Why would i seek to go to heaven, as a place, when where i am at, God is? It could be said i am already in heaven!
See the short version below.
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20 Jan 14
4 edits
Originally posted by Rank outsider
Sorry, you keep suggesting that I need to invent some kind of lie to keep myself going from day to day, stop slipping into despair etc.
This is not true.
I have not invented anything. I accept the world as I believe it is.
And if I were to accept your view of 'meaning' (which is difficult as you don't know what your meaning of 'meaning' is, but I will make a best guess), then I would accept that everything that I am and do is 'meaningless'.
And I don't find that at all bleak, or in need of some invention to get through the day.
So stop telling me what I think.
Okay, there is no bleakness for you.
Has anyone done you dirt ?
I am not encouraging you to keep grudges or not be forgiving.
But I ask, has anyone genuinely wronged you ?
Has anyone wounded you and gone on their peaceful way ?
If so, when will they have to give account for that offense ?
Will they simply shrug, "That was too bad for you" ?
Life was neither bleak for them as they walked over you.
Will there never be a settling of the balance a righting of the in-equality ?
Now I turn the question around to you.
What about someone you stepped on in your journey ?
Is there no one who would not look down at you on your death bed with a faint smile of delight ? No one ?
If there is no ultimate Governor when will these billions of in-equalities be righted ?
You say " I'm fine. I'm not bleak. I live life as I see the world."
Yea, you do. And so too the Cleveland man who kidnapped three girls and kept them prisoners, sex slaves, in his house for 10 years.
Where in your world without God is the settling of accounts, the judging of iniquity. Iniquity means in-equality. What ultimate referee what final arbitrator will balance out the moral in-equalities of our crimes upon each other ? What justice is there ?
I mean perfect justice. I mean infallible justice. I mean justice which lacks no important contributing fact. I mean justice which is omniscient in awareness, omnipotent in power, omnipresent in witness -perfect.
Does the aborted baby have no eternal advocate ?
Does the bashed gay man have no righteous witness ?
Does the violent vigilante never stand to be examined by perfect justice?
The used and dumped young girl sees no righting of her abuse ?
The alcoholic's child carry his misery with no straightener of the crooked ?
To say there will never be an ultimate moral accounting is bleak to me.
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Originally posted by Pudgenik
Sonship, i have a question for you, just a point to ponder.
God lives in me and i in Him. Why would i seek to go to heaven, as a place, when where i am at, God is? It could be said i am already in heaven!
God lives in me and i in Him. Why would i seek to go to heaven, as a place, when where i am at, God is? It could be said i am already in heaven![/b]
The short version:
I agree with your premise.
The man or woman who receives Christ - part of their being is already heavenly.
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20 Jan 14
Originally posted by sonshipGod lives in me and i in Him. Why would i seek to go to heaven, as a place, when where i am at, God is? It could be said i am already in heaven!
The short version:
I agree with your premise.
The man or woman who receives Christ - part of their being is already heavenly.[/b]sonship, you are dismissing people who tell you what meaning they feel life has. you are then arguing that being with god for eternity has true meaning. all you are really doing though is basing 'meaning' on what floats your boat. to us atheists we see no deeper meaning in your senario, we just here 'this is what i like, this is what i think meaning is' which is exactly the same as somebody else saying 'playing jazz and eating good food gives my life meaning'.
i personally find your picture of eternity rather depressing, it does nothing for me, i wouldnt want to be a part of it. it has no meaning to me. a short-life packed full of temporary moments does have meaning to me.
so the only real difference is time. your life with meaning lasts forever, mine only a short time. does this actually make either one more meaningful than the other??
more importantly than all this, is the fact that meaning or no meaning doesnt alter the reality. regardless if you are correct about the atheist world view being bleak and meaningless doesnt make it anymore false. you should not turn to god just because you dont 'like' the other option.
to me, a person who see's no point in life without god probably should go a see a doctor.
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Originally posted by stellspalfie
sonship, you are dismissing people who tell you what meaning they feel life has.
I apologize for sounding dismissive. But it is not theists who take the only initiative to point out the dilemma.
Very committed Atheists have realized the predicament themselves.
you are then arguing that being with god for eternity has true meaning. all you are really doing though is basing 'meaning' on what floats your boat. [/ to us atheists we see no deeper meaning in your senario, we just here 'this is what i like, this is what i think meaning is' which is exactly the same as somebody else saying 'playing jazz and eating good food gives my life meaning'.
I do not think it is whatever floats my boat. I think it is why there is a universe and life to begin with.
My personal enjoyment is quite secondary. Why there is something rather than nothing is what is important.
Googlefudge said no mind means no meaning. I'm thinking on that. However, I wonder if one could also say no mind means no existence.
It is hard to think no mind had implanted meaning into DNA coding.
Maybe no human mind was there to appreciate for a time.
But does that mean DNA coding had no meaning ?
It meant enough to continue to replicate other living things.
i personally find your picture of eternity rather depressing, it does nothing for me, i wouldnt want to be a part of it. it has no meaning to me. a short-life packed full of temporary moments does have meaning to me.
You have that choice. And if there is no God the value of your life will never be determined in an objective way.
But then again neither will the value of the life of anyone else good or bad.
so the only real difference is time. your life with meaning lasts forever, mine only a short time. does this actually make either one more meaningful than the other??
I think the resurrection of Christ demonstrates that he who does the will of God abides forever.
If Christ did not rise or if you were to produce the bones of Jesus, the corpse of the man Jesus of Nazareth, then my faith would be defeated.
But it would still have been the best life worth living. If I had ten lives to live I would not choose to waste one of them not believing in Christ, the Son of God, died and risen.
So it is a little stronger than whatever floats my boat. It is history. If Christ was and rose from the dead and is available, then we have a strong seal stamped on the world. The meaning is that which God the Creator imparts to His creation.
Of course anyone can shrug and ignore for their preoccupations.
If God is not they will only melt into the dust.
If God is, if Christ is, their preoccupations will be evaluated and God not we will have the final word.
So be sure.
more importantly than all this, is the fact that meaning or no meaning doesnt alter the reality. regardless if you are correct about the atheist world view being bleak and meaningless doesnt make it anymore false. you should not turn to god just because you dont 'like' the other option.
I don't regard it as a matter only of my personal happiness. I regard the matter of what is real.
It is not wishful thinking that is paramount. It is what is real.
Jesus Christ, I think, is believable.
Jesus Christ is more believable than you or I.
to me, a person who see's no point in life without god probably should go a see a doctor.
Maybe. Then maybe I can find as many toys to keep my mind off of contemplating it. I can stay busy just as well as the next person. And I do not think all atheists are on the verge of mental collapse.
You are trying to move the matter into the arena of personal happiness alone. Let's say we are all here quite not bleak, merry, each going our own way. Is it not an absurd circus in which there is no justice ?
I see in the microscope with what skill even the sting of a wasp is fashioned. [edited] Does it add up that the design of a wasp's sting is more tailored then the creation of a human life with its moral choices ?
Bleakness aside. It doesn't add up. It doesn't smack of realism.
Let alone the fact that your atheist world strongly indicates that I can get away with anything practically. This moral relativism is your licentious result.
What reason is to assume the decline of a Roman empire like civilization cannot re-occur ?
Richard Wurmbrand was tortured for his faith in a communist prison. He wrote:
The cruelty of atheism is hard to believe when man has no faith in the reward of good or the punishment of evil. There is no reason to be human. There is no restraint from the depths of evil which is in man. The communist torturers often said, "There is no God, no Hereafter, no punishment for evil. we can do what we wish." I have heard one torturer even say, " I thank God, in whom I don't believe, that I have lived to this hour when I can express all the evil in my heart." He expressed it in unbelievable brutality and torture inflicted on prisoners.
Okay, insert now religious torturer doing what he does, supposedly "for God". The dilemma is the same with the religious theist evil doer.
The care with which the atoms are constructed, with which the eye is formed, with which the DNA molecule is arranged, with which the egg and sperm unite and multiply, does not encourage me to assume earth's highest life form, mankind, has no guidelines within to act morally and no final evaluator.
It is not realistic to assume no connection here.
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20 Jan 14
Originally posted by sonshipI apologize for sounding dismissive. But it is not theists who take the only initiative to point out the dilemma.sonship, you are dismissing people who tell you what meaning they feel life has.
I apologize for sounding dismissive. But it is not theists who take the only initiative to point out the dilemma.
Very committed Atheists have realized the predicament themselves.
[quote]
you are then arguing that being with god for eternity has ...[text shortened]... to act morally and no final evaluator.
It is not realistic to assume no connection here.
im sure there are atheists who battle with 'meaning'. being an atheist is not being part of a club, we do not all agree on all things. in fact there is only one thing we are sure to agree on. i personally disagree with those who search for more meaning outside of themselves. i suspect the majority of people who search for a 'bigger' meaning, are usually people who find little meaning in their own life.........which is usually the result of depression.
It is hard to think no mind had implanted meaning into DNA coding.
hard for you. hard for me to think the opposite.
But does that mean DNA coding had no meaning
yes dna coding has no more meaning than any other chemical reaction. would you describe water as having a meaning? it is just chemicals reacting. oxygen molecules do not sit around mulling over if they should join up or split with hydrogen molecules, deciding if it would make them happy.
And if there is no God the value of your life will never be determined in an objective way.
the value of my life will be measured by individuals, the people who knew me or were effected by my existence (which you could argue is everybody). their measurements will all be independent of each other and personal to the individual. i of course will also value my life. if there is a god it will not change this one iota. gods opinion or value is no more important than anybody elses. if he decides i should spend eternity with him, well thats the value he has, it doesnt change anybody else.
If Christ did not rise or if you were to produce the bones of Jesus, the corpse of the man Jesus of Nazareth, then my faith would be defeated.
But it would still have been the best life worth living.
exactly. you enjoy your christianity, it gives you meaning, a meaning you love. so if it turns out there is no god, it does not diminish your meaning. because as i said at the begining 'meaning' is what ever floats your boat, not truth (i would note that you have also kinda said the opposite to this, that your meaning is based on you knowing it is true).
Maybe. Then maybe I can find as many toys to keep my mind off of contemplating it. I can stay busy just as well as the next person. And I do not think all atheists are on the verge of mental collapse.
im not saying we have to distract ourselves to not think about it. im saying we think about it and not draw the same conclusions or have the same emotional response. i do not find the thought that there is no 'big' meaning bleak, but i do spend lots of time staring into space and thinking about how it all works or how tiny we are. i do not find any of it sad. i do not get the urge or desire to invent something magical to solve all the unknowns. i like the unknowns, they are exciting.
Is it not an absurd circus in which there is no justice
its not absurd to me (although there are many absurd things) i feel the invention of a god feels absurd, a god is an illogical response to a logical universe.
justice is subjective. i see justice and injustice everyday. what does justice mean to you?
Let alone the fact that your atheist world strongly indicates that I can get away with anything practically
how so? what do you mean by get away with?
20 Jan 14
Originally posted by sonshipOk. Let's try another tack.sonship, you are dismissing people who tell you what meaning they feel life has.
I apologize for sounding dismissive. But it is not theists who take the only initiative to point out the dilemma.
Very committed Atheists have realized the predicament themselves.
[quote]
you are then arguing that being with god for eternity has ...[text shortened]... to act morally and no final evaluator.
It is not realistic to assume no connection here.
Supposed I said that I derive all meaning in my life from the fact that I am the parent of my son. Everything I do in my life is simply a means to provide for him so that he can live as happy and fulfilled a life as possible.
This is not true, of course, but let's keep this simple.
Please explain precisely, and briefly, why, in the absence of God, this is not sufficient to provide meaning to my life?
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20 Jan 14
Originally posted by stellspalfieRank, I expect to be called away to some meanings that my wife has for me at any moment. So replies will be in fragments.
\
im sure there are atheists who battle with 'meaning'. being an atheist is not being part of a club, we do not all agree on all things. in fact there is only one thing we are sure to agree on. i personally disagree with those who search for more meaning outside of themselves. i suspect the majority of people who search for a 'bigger' meaning, are usually people who find little meaning in their own life.........which is usually the result of depression.
Would you say that Jesus Christ was one of these depressed "larger meaning" searcher types ?