18 Jan 14
Originally posted by sonship[b]Your issue really isn't meaning at all; it's your fear of being 'temporary'.
I know that one could simply end life suddenly as to jump over that "fear". Or one could simply pay himself until he drops.
My brother who died of HIV infection, at least, had a good long time to contemplate his ebbing away life. I would ...[text shortened]... empty of meaning. It is super absurd. One might prefer death to it.
Give it another shot.[/b]I think you are really confused.
You have spent page after page establishing the premise (with which I don't agree) that because things are temporary, there is therefore no meaning to them. Remember Brahms 1st (good choice, by the way).
Now you are saying that a universe where Brahms 1st could be listened to for all eternity is also meaningless.
It might help clarify what you do mean if you could give an answer to this question.
Why would an eternal life with your friends, family etc not have meaning, but an eternity with God would?
I think you are going to struggle to explain this, by the way, except by variants of 'because I would be with God'. Which is not an answer. What exactly gives this any more meaning?
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I think you are really confused.
Straighten me.
You have spent page after page establishing the premise (with which I don't agree) that because things are temporary, there is therefore no meaning to them. Remember Brahms 1st (good choice, by the way).
Glad you like it. Actually I have since come to prefer Bruckner.
However, not just temporary is a problem without God. Forever, without God is a problem.
You may think that being an atheist is enjoyable. Is it so enjoyable that you would like to live this way for eternity ?
Before I met Jesus Christ I went to bed with one opinion and woke in the morning with another. I was like the tossed sea - no rest. I was like the endless churning of the waves of the sea.
The Bible latter told me that there was no rest for the wicked.
"For the WHAT ??"
Ummm ... for the wicked ?
Rejection of God and wickedness go hand in hand Lord ?
Anyway, you are going to convince me that I am confused.
Now you are saying that a universe where Brahms 1st could be listened to for all eternity is also meaningless.
Sorry to say, fellow music lover. But what the listening to that beautiful music does is inspire more hunger for something more.
This is why Jesus told the woman at the well - "Whoever drinks of this water will thirst again. Whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him shall by no means thirst forever; but the water that I shall give him shall become in him a fountain of water gushing up into eternal life." (John 4:14 my 1rst quoted bible passage )
I believe that God has provided many things for us to enjoy. None of them can replace Himself. And what things we delight in can only stir up our thirst for more.
So if the old Brahms 1rst did last a million years, that would be a million years of hearers hearing it and afterward longing for more beauty.
Do you not long for worlds of beauty after hearing a beautiful THING - a piece of music or literature ? As enjoyable as they are they are still things.
WE NEED A PERSON ultimately.
I ain't confused about it. I got straightened out. I found out what I really need is a Person, a Father, a Savior, God, a living God.
It might help clarify what you do mean if you could give an answer to this question.
Why would an eternal life with your friends, family etc not have meaning, but an eternity with God would?
Good question.
According to what I see in the revelation of the Bible there is an eternal kingdom with both a vertical and a horizontal enjoyment. The oneness with God of all these billions of people necessarily means a utter oneness in love with one another.
I do enjoy my brother and sister. But that enjoyment is quite limited because of differences in opinion and taste and other things.
The Bible shows something higher and better. That is not everyone becomes like me. But everyone becomes like Jesus Christ. Or shall I say everyone becomes infused with, saturated with, permeated with Christ.
This is a oneness with the Triune God vertically yet also a endless oneness of agape love between the inhabitants of that world.
Sinners cannot be one.
Men and women saturated with God as their divine nature united with their human nature can be one, for His expression and for their enjoyment.
Tonight read the last two chapters of the Bible - Revelation 21 and 22. That is the meaning of the existence of the universe, of human life, and of being. It is pictured in symbolic terms.
It means the union of God and man. It means the expansion of Jesus Christ into a "city" as the capital of the new universe.
I think you are going to struggle to explain this, by the way, except by variants of 'because I would be with God'. Which is not an answer. What exactly gives this any more meaning?
I would not just be with God. We will not just be with God. We will be God in man.
WE will be man and God incorporated together. Jesus Christ - mass produced and expanded. That is what He has in mind.
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Originally posted by Rank outsider
FAQ
[b]Q What's the point of life if you don't believe in God? Doesn't everything become meaningless?
Some atheists would argue that life does not necessarily have to have a point. Life is just a fact, and we make of it what we will.
Others would argue that many of the things that theists value most about life (family, friends, RHP) are t ...[text shortened]... t were proven that God did not exist, this would not stop (former) theists valuing these things.[/b]
Some atheists would argue that life does not necessarily have to have a point. Life is just a fact, and we make of it what we will.
But they cannot actually live that way. They end up having to be have one philosophy of life over all but something else to practically live in a world sanely.
Others would argue that many of the things that theists value most about life (family, friends, RHP) are the same as for atheists. If it were proven that God did not exist, this would not stop (former) theists valuing these things.
But the atheistic humanist is really inconsistent in affirming traditional values of love and brotherhood. For example Camus emphasized the absurdity of life and the ethics of human love and brotherhood. He was criticized for the inconsistency.
Bertrand Russell, the atheist was a complainer too as a social critic. He denounced war and unbridled sexual freedom. He admitted that he could not live as though ethical values were simply a matter of personal taste. But with no God as a ultimate moral authority what else are our moral standards ?
"I do not know the solution" the atheist said. He did not understand his own views which he called "incredible."
If God does not exist then life is objectively meaningless. But we cannot live consistently and happily knowing that life is meaningless. In order to be happy the athiest has to pretend that as he plays with various toys life has meaning. At least for those moments it does.
It is not a consistent way to be. But the atheist has to handle his life on two contradictory levels because without God, man and the universe are without any real significance.
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Originally posted by Rajk999
You did not read the question.
God is going to judge every man including atheists. Atheists will be rewarded according to their works.
You did not read the question.
God is going to judge every man including atheists. Atheists will be rewarded according to their works.
The atheist does not believe he will be rewarded or punished according to his works other than in some passing Darwinian way for the species.
Joseph Mendel performed horrifying experiments of Jewish prisoners. He was never caught. I think he disappeared into the swamps in hiding in South America somewhere.
The atheist knows of no further moral judgment of Joseph Mendel or of any one else good or bad.
I ask then what should motivate a Joseph Mendel to not do whatever he wants if he can get away with it ?
He was only making life meaningful for himself and his Fuhrer.
They say God does not exist. We are machines propagating DNA until we either kill each other in nuclear war or destroy the environment.
So we find another planet to move to because of over crowding. So what? Man takes his problems with him where ever he goes in the universe. Another planet will only be another stage for his crimes, errors, follies, and inhumanity to work itself out again in repetition.
If no God - What Meaning ?
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18 Jan 14
Originally posted by wolfgang59
If there is no god there are two options:
1. Join a religion and let someone else give your life meaning - these people are called theists.
2. Put meaning into your own life - these people are called atheists.
If there is no god there are two options:
1. Join a religion and let someone else give your life meaning - these people are called theists.
2. Put meaning into your own life - these people are called atheists.
There are more options than that. Some theists are not joiners. There are loner theists plenty. I was one for awhile myself and refused to own a "membership" to any church.
Lone ranger spiritual people abound.
so that retort is somewhat bogus.
Your second option has been mentioned here before. And I still ask, what "REAL" objective meaning does that have ?
So you cannot live as in a meaningless world. You make a leap of faith that for the moment you can inject some virtual meaning into life.
Yes, you can do that. And so can Emperor Caligula - stealing the wives of his dinner guests to take them away for rape. Then he returned to his guests and boasted of how they performed before their husbands in public.
Joseph Mendel took the route of concocting his own meaning noble style like the stiff upper lipped atheist. Of course it was to the misery and death of women and babies.
All is not lost. The "good" atheists can make out a more harmless meaning to their lives. But a lot of the really smart ones discovered the more they were aware of what they were doing the more despair they knew.
If you kill God off you make man an orphan.
Your method has been described as "The Noble Lie."
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So if there is no God we can resort to "The Noble Lie."
At the "The American Academy for the Advancement of Science" in 1991 a Dr. L.D. Rue mused in speech about the meaningless dilemma of modern man. He said we can deceive ourselves into thinking a "Noble Lie" that the universe still has meaning contrary to modern thinking.
He claimed that moral relativism had taught the lesson that man must live such a quest for personal wholeness or self fulfillment in independent ways. That's what we hear echoed in the "Don't be a joiner atheism" slogan.
A radical privatized invention of values and meaning must be sought.
"There is because no final, objective reading on the world or the self. There is not universal vocabulary for integrating cosmology and morality."
He argued that to avoid the "madhouse option" of social destruction in unbridled selfish meaning making on one hand, and "the totalitarian option" where the imposition of social meaning runs ruin over personal wholeness, then we have no choice but to embrace "The Noble Lie."
This he described as a philosophy "that deceives us, tricks us, compels us beyond self-interest, beyond ego, beyond family, nation, [and] race." We have to pretend that this meaningless universe can be value injected. The value is an illusion, a fiction. But it has to be done to live sanely in the world. You must make claim to universal truth when none actually exists.
"But without such lies we cannot live."
To survive we must live in self deception. This wolfgang59 seems to support heartily. that is "Do It Yourself" ultimate value for the universe. It is unselfish. It is for the masses. But it is an illusion of value. The more one is convinced of the socially benevolent self made meaning has to accompany his atheism and relativism the less sane it is to believe it.
The person who most clearly sees the dilemma most acutely feels the vanity of pretending to solve the predicament.
This is like a placebo in a medical experiment. It only works for the people who believe it is true medicine. Once you see the truth the Noble Lie loses its power.
In the end you have an elitist group like an illuminate who work to deceive the populace. The lie must be perpetrated to achieve social cohesion and avoid anarchy. This Matrix of an existence has to be policed and reinforced to keep everyone deceived thoroughly. But the wisest know it is all a facade of fiction.
There is the danger that the masses will discover the lie and refuse to live for it any longer. But then why should those who are smart enough to know a facade has to be maintained, longer resolve to live the Lie ?
Originally posted by sonshipOh .. I get it. Its all about what the person believes.
.. The atheist does not believe he will be rewarded or punished..
You believe you are going to heaven.
Hindus believe they will reincarnate into a higher soul if they are good.
Muslims believe they are going to heaven with 36 virgins
Some believe in Valhalla
Some believe in Elysium.
JWs believe they will remain on the Earth.
Atheists believe in nothing.
You are a smart guy ..🙂
Do you know what the Bible says?
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Originally posted by Rank outsider
I think you are really confused.
You have spent page after page establishing the premise (with which I don't agree) that because things are temporary, there is therefore no meaning to them. Remember Brahms 1st (good choice, by the way).
Now you are saying that a universe where Brahms 1st could be listened to for all eternity is also meaningless. ...[text shortened]... ecause I would be with God'. Which is not an answer. What exactly gives this any more meaning?
I think you are going to struggle to explain this, by the way, except by variants of 'because I would be with God'. Which is not an answer. What exactly gives this any more meaning?
This being "with God" in the Bible is really being mingled and united organically with God. The union Paul describes, among other ways, as an inseparable love. That is a love from which nothing in existence or will exist is able to sever the bond of love of God toward the saved.
Take in the whole passage:
"Indeed, He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not also with Him freely give us all things ?
Who is he who condemns? It is Christ Jesus who died and, rather was raised, who is also at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us.
Who shall separate us from the love of Christ ? Shall tribulation or anguish or persecution or famine or nakeness or peril ... ? "
Let us add or global warming or asteroid impacts or extinction of humanity or dying stars or dying galaxies aging universe/s or black holes ...
"What shall separate us from the love of Christ ? Shall tribulation or anguish or persecution or famine or nakedness or peril or sword ?
... but in all these things we more than conquer through Him who loved us. For I am persuaded that neither death nor life nor angels nor principalities nor things present nor things to come nor powers nor height nor depth nor any other creature will be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."
A love of an uncreated and Divine Person who calls all things into being infuses the saved with Himself - joining them to Him and building them into Him and He into them for a mutual incorporation is God's eternal purpose.
Nothing present or to come, no principality - meaning no form of government and no created thing - "nor any other creature" will be able to separate the saved from the love of God in Christ Jesus.
God Himself as the uncreated eternal Life infused into His creature man bestows upon humanity undying purpose, eternal meaning. And the whole universe as a stage for this romance also is given meaning and will be preserved.
18 Jan 14
Originally posted by sonshipWhile many theists do not belong to an organised religion and may think
[ There are more options than that. Some theists are not joiners. There are loner theists plenty. I was one for awhile myself and refused to own a "membership" to any church.
Lone ranger spiritual people abound.
of themselves as "free thinking" they will actually have got their religion
from someone.
I don't think there are any theists now who have created a completely new religion!!!
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Originally posted by Rajk999
Oh .. I get it. Its all about what the person believes.
You believe you are going to heaven.
Hindus believe they will reincarnate into a higher soul if they are good.
Muslims believe they are going to heaven with 36 virgins
Some believe in Valhalla
Some believe in Elysium.
JWs believe they will remain on the Earth.
Atheists believe in nothing.
You are a smart guy ..🙂
Do you know what the Bible says?
Oh .. I get it. Its all about what the person believes.
You believe you are going to heaven.
I do ? That is news to me.
For about six years I have posted here. Can you find one post in which I argued about people "going to heaven" ?
Rather than a place to go it is a Person into whose image the saved are being transformed into, that is the final destiny of those who receive Christ.
You go to heaven with the old man and you transport all your problems to heaven.
Romans 8:28 says what ? What does it say the saved were predestinated to be ? It says that Christ may be the Firstborn among many brothers.
The New Jerusalem is the corporate Christ - the aggregate of N-llions conformed to the image of the Firstborn Son.
Christ taught the disciples to pray "Your Kingdom COME" not "Your kingdom GO."
Hindus believe they will reincarnate into a higher soul if they are good.
Muslims believe they are going to heaven with 36 virgins
Some believe in Valhalla
Some believe in Elysium.
JWs believe they will remain on the Earth.
Atheists believe in nothing.
This thread was dedicated to the atheists to explain what the meaning of life and the universe is with the non-existence of God.
The bold and vocal ones have said "Make your own meaning."
I talked a little about the problems of that belief.
Nothing stops the making of my own meaning to the detriment of others.
And even positively, it is a false meaning in the larger scheme. To live happily and sanely one must take a leap of faith that a temporary self made meaning is meaning.
I ask, what difference does it make if nothing but death, extinction, oblivion awaits all the meaning makers ?
I really don't think it makes any real meaning then to make your own meaning. But it is maybe better than insanity of the truth (the truth according to the no God proposition of atheism ).
What stops people from doing whatever they can get away with ?
If my meaning crushes you, so what ?
I am just doing what you proposed I should do - Make up my own temporary meaning.
" I did it My Way! " and now I turn to dust.
And if I stepped on you in the process, get over it. It is all meaningless in the end.
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Originally posted by wolfgang59
While many theists do not belong to an organised religion and may think of themselves as "free thinking" they will actually have got their religion from someone.
So what is wrong with getting some truth from someone else ?
Is the goal in life to be able to stand up and brag "See everybody? I can say something original !! " ?
So a light from a candle can pass the flame from one end of the country to the other - candle by candle by candle the flame transfers and lives on.
A light can be passed down the years - candle by candle by candle. That others share what others share may just mean that it is universal truth.
In the heat of everyday life there are a million and one ways I can apply Jesus Christ's Spirit to my behavior. There are as many ways I can live Christ as there are thoughts that can pass through my mind.
There is FORM and there is FREEDOM too. Form and Freedom - you know ? Like good Jazz wolfgang49 - some structure and some freedom within the structure.
What is this ? "But IIIIIII must be Original !! "
So you get Jesus Christ into your heart. You'll still have a billion ways to be original about how you apply His nature, His Spirit, His influence from within.
I don't think there are any theists now who have created a completely new religion!!![/b]
I don't know about that. Mary Baker Eddy ? Bishop Pike ? Charles Taz Russell ? The G word has been invoked by lots of inventors of systems.
I am a theist, a Christian. We have congregations on all five continents where I can go and merely say "I am a brother in Christ ". Monotony has never been a problem.
The snowflakes are all different. Why would you think God doesn't like variety ?
The very triune being of God testifies to eternal freedom within eternal form - balance of the corporate with the distinct.
The New Jerusalem in the end of the Bible is composed of 12 kinds of precious stones. It is symbolic of transformed people. Green is still green. But it is a transparent green. Orange is still orange. But it is a transparent orange. Blue is still blue but transparent.
The light of God come shinning through the gems, though the gems be of different colors.
How come Jesus said He would give a new name to each one that ONLY the person who receives it will know?
" He who has an ear to hear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.
To him who overcomes, to him, I will give of the hidden manna, and to him I will give a white stone, and upon the stone a new name written, which no one knows except him who receive it." (Revelation 2:17)
A stone means some thing for building.
A stone means a transformed person for the building of the living house of God.
A "white stone" means a person justified and made qualified for God's building. A white stone is a person approved by Jesus Christ through His sanctification process. He or she is qualified, justified to be built into the living temple of God. Unity in diversity.
A white stone with a new name written in it means no one else except that person has those same exact experiences of transformation. Only he and God know what he had to live through.
He that shed His blood on the cross for each one individually knows each individual's unique life and what transformation needs are needed to save him from the fall.
How can God who created no one else exactly like me not regard also my uniqueness? There can be building in love and preservation of uniquness in God's salvation.
Paul writes "Christ ... Who loved me and gave Himself up for me ..."
The twelve disciples were totally different from one another in temperament, taste, character. They were all saved in Christ and their names of the them each are symbolically seen written on the twelve foundations of the New Jerusalem. (Judas was replaced )
Oneness and individual preciousness are not mutually exclusive in God's economy.
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The last lone and rogue star collapses, goes out, becomes ashes or a black whole.
No more stars. All galaxies dispersed made expanded cold dust. Atoms all disintengrated. Blackness, coldness forever ...
What difference did it make that you lived if there is no God ?
What difference did your tiny self made meaning really make in the expanse of this cold eternity ?
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Originally posted by sonshipYou keep asking pretty much the same question.
The last lone and rogue star collapses, goes out, becomes ashes or a black whole.
No more stars. All galaxies dispersed made expanded cold dust. Atoms all disintengrated. Blackness, coldness forever ...
What difference did it make that you lived if there is no God ?
What difference did your tiny self made meaning really make in the expanse of this cold eternity ?
Are you expecting different results?
OK how do you know it's blackness coldness forever? It happened not to be, at least once.
Originally posted by Rajk999And clearly you have the cart before the horse, here.
The Bible says over a dozen times in different ways that God or Christ will judge [b]every man according to his deeds/works. What is your interpretation of the words 'every man'? Clearly for you it means 'some men'.[/b]
Do you honestly think that the 'altruistic atheist', who has 'good works' aplenty, yet fails to have faith, to believe in God and more specifically, in Jesus Christ as Savior, has an equal right to the Kingdom of God as the faithful theist, who prays daily to God, who goes to church regularly and follows all of Christ's commandments, including love for God and love for his own human brothers?
I think maybe you need to use discernment, in the difference between ergon and praxis.
Works are the result of faith. Faith is not the result of works. There's a big difference. Faith is what saves, works is just an indicator of faith. It can only be counted in the presence of faith. Works without faith is hollow, meaningless. Works will not save anyone without faith, that none should boast. It is not through our work that we are saved, but through grace.