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When I was a boy my father had a few albums of classical music. He use to play Brahms first symphony. To me it was just a big ocean of sound.
Then one day I had heard it for the Nth time and suddenly I understood the music. It was not just a ocean of activity on the ear with various instruments. I remember the pleasure of coming to "understand" the music. Here was a melody. Here he develops it. Here he does this and that with it.
I recall being so intrigued that I wished that such a beautiful work of imagination should live forever. I thought that it was something that should never be gone.
But cosmologist tell us that the whole universe will grow cold and die out into nothingness. All the albums, all the poetry, the novels, the great speeches, the acts of heroism, the acts of help, assistance, pursuits of the noble will end in frozen ashes in the endless darkness some day.
Why?
Nobodies symphony will last forever.
Nobodies empire or lover or mother or country or friends or those helped or those fought for will live forever.
In a existence without God, we are just some freaky accident of luck somehow made to reproduce DNA until the sun dies out and the planet freezes in the dark or is burnt up in red dwarf giant.
H.G. Well's novel "The Time Machine" intrigued me as a young person. But it was rather depressing when the time traveler went to the last days of the earth. There was nothing but a large red sun, a beach, unbreathable air, and some last weird big sea crab coming close to gobble the time traveler up. He thrust his machine back into the past. He had seen the end of human life.
If no God of eternal love and eternal life we kid ourselves. We cannot live as if there is no God. We have to substitute something there. We have to make a leap of faith and pretend something is there.
Besides propagate DNA in an absurd game which only lasts so long, what meaning other does human life have ?
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Originally posted by sonshipIf your faith satisfies a need in you that would otherwise cause you unbearable distress or depression, then you may be better off having that faith.
Now I would really like to know what difference any kind of life makes if there is no God. I don't know to start a new thread. Maybe, I'll just ask it here.
Now if God does not exist then what difference does it make that anyone lived, anything existed, how we behaved, what we "lived" for ?
Honestly. What difference does it make ?
I have had and do have several purposes/meanings in my life, from the honorable and altruistic to the silly but fun. This is not to say the subject is entirely settled. New purpose and meaning might be right around the corner.
Originally posted by sonshipFAQ
The time is distant, distant into the future. The stars have all died out. The galaxies have expanded into the black of a cold dead universe. Nothing left but black holes, ashes, darkness spreading out forever.
Earth is long gone. Man and whatever evolved after man is long gone. Nothing but the cold blackness of empty nothingness as the cosmos spreads ou ...[text shortened]... t difference does it make that you lived ?
What difference does it make how you lived ? [/b]
Q What's the point of life if you don't believe in God? Doesn't everything become meaningless?
Some atheists would argue that life does not necessarily have to have a point. Life is just a fact, and we make of it what we will.
Others would argue that many of the things that theists value most about life (family, friends, RHP) are the same as for atheists. If it were proven that God did not exist, this would not stop (former) theists valuing these things.
Originally posted by SwissGambitIs this reality or is it your reality?
We make our own meaning, and our lives are temporary. We only matter for a short time, and only to a few people who happen to be involved with us. This is reality. You can either bemoan it or learn to accept it and make good use of the time you have.
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Originally posted by sonship[b]The Bible says over a dozen times in different ways that God or Christ will judge [b]every manaccording to his deeds/works. What is your interpretation of the words 'every man'? Clearly for you it means 'some men'.[/b]
I know what it says Rajk999. And this thread is not about "Once Saved Always Saved" and its debates.
I am ...[text shortened]...
But they may come up with some meaning to the existence of the universe and life after all.[/b]"I am asking the atheists who say God does not exist. "
Oh. I missed seeing this.
I don't say that. I say that when I introspect, I find no belief in God. That's wasn't always true, and it might not always be true.
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Originally posted by JS357
If your faith satisfies a need in you that would otherwise cause you unbearable distress or depression, then you may be better off having that faith.
I have had and do have several purposes/meanings in my life, from the honorable and altruistic to the silly but fun. This is not to say the subject is entirely settled. New purpose and meaning might be right around the corner.
New temporary purposes though are imagined significances in the larger scene of it all.
Do you re-call the final scene of the movie "Blowup" ? The clown faced actors are throwing around an imaginary ball. It doesn't exist. They pretend that it exists.
They throw beyond their reach and look expectantly at the observing hero. He pretends to pick it up and throw it back to them. And they go happily and vainly away. An absurdity.
You are saying "Occupy yourself now with a few momentary absurdities."
I agree that we cannot possibly live happily in a meaningless universe. But if there is no God then the more we see its emptiness the more absurd each moment of life is.
I appreciate the good hearted advice from those saying "Well man, just make the best of it. Keep yourself busy. Keep yourself occupied with some toys."
We are like monkeys or acrobats in a circus swinging from high ring to high ring, trying to keep ourselves from falling into boredom.
Do you want to come to the end of your life just knowing that you swung from rung to rung long enough to not have to think about the fact you are now stepping into oblivion ?
Brahms lay on his death bed crying.
I have heard that Einstein muttered "There's no time. There's no eternity." Haven't confirmed it.
Pretend there is meaning for the moment. That is what you are saying.
Originally posted by sonship[b]We make our own meaning, and our lives are temporary. We only matter for a short time, and only to a few people who happen to be involved with us. This is reality. You can either bemoan it or learn to accept it and make good use of the time you have.
Yes, SwissGambit, in a Godless existence we strive to make our own meaning.
...[text shortened]... with no plan with no purpose with no goal.
We're just machines to propagate DNA ? For WHAT ?[/b]Your issue really isn't meaning at all; it's your fear of being 'temporary'.
Originally posted by JS357Fills a need? Wow a pretty arrogant, but typical attitude.
If your faith satisfies a need in you that would otherwise cause you unbearable distress or depression, then you may be better off having that faith.
I have had and do have several purposes/meanings in my life, from the honorable and altruistic to the silly but fun. This is not to say the subject is entirely settled. New purpose and meaning might be right around the corner.
The discussion isn't about need, but simply natural outcomes based on your view of reality.
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Originally posted by SwissGambit
Your issue really isn't meaning at all; it's your fear of being 'temporary'.
I know that one could simply end life suddenly as to jump over that "fear". Or one could simply pay himself until he drops.
My brother who died of HIV infection, at least, had a good long time to contemplate his ebbing away life. I would like to think that he was reconciled to God in those final long agonizing days.
But others may not have to contemplate any temporariness because of a fast or sudden departure.
But I protest you diagnosis just a little bit. Suppose I DID live FOREVER in a Godless existence ? Would that be any more of a comfort? I think not. I think that would be as bad or even worse.
None temporary - endless meaninglessness.
Give me another diagnosis doc. A non temporary universe without God is just as empty of meaning. It is super absurd. One might prefer death to it.
Give it another shot.
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Originally posted by EladarI'm not being arrogant. If you ask me a question, I will try to reply.
Fills a need? Wow a pretty arrogant, but typical attitude.
The discussion isn't about need, but simply natural outcomes based on your view of reality.
So now we have three ideas on what this thread is about:
1. Meaning
2. Temporariness
3. Outcomes
And they are related, as religious faith claims to address all three.
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SwissGambit has advized that my real bother is being temporary.
Anyone see or read the story of Tuck Everlasting ? In the novel you have a family that lives forever in a world where everyone else lives and dies.
Turns out to be kind of sad for them. They are definitely not temporary. At one time in the past they drank from a stream in the woods that enabled them not to be hurt or to die, including the horse.
It is a juvenile story, I think, but a good one. They spend their time trying to fit in with the people around them. The boy cannot have a meaningful love affair with any girl cause he knows she will die unless she finds that same water in the forest.
They spend a good deal of time trying to conceal the dangerous little stream from the world. Interestingly, at the end of this sad little story, the tree where the stream was is destroyed by lightening and the stream apparently is done away.
It is the only ray of hope in the story as far as I can see. It implies that maybe this endlessly living family will also one day be put out of their lonely infinite existence.
Anyway, temporariness has been noted as the true fear I express. However, that story Tuck Everlasting nicely brings out the sadness of a endless life when still no meaning is grasped.
It was not theological. But to me implications in it of a world of only humans and nothing higher may have been implied.
I might add the same kind of theme existed in the science fiction movie Zardoz. Someone brings the "gift" of death in a Godless world of eternal life.
This may not have been the intention of the writers. But in both cases the implication of an endless life with no higher spirituality, no God, is I think, unintentionally perhaps, implied.