22 Aug 06
Originally posted by telerionIf you were even shallowly aware of Christian apologetics, you would know that I haven't 'made it up on the spot'. I've already recommended Mere Christianity to you. Lewis goes into great detail on the subject, and much more eloquently than I ever could.
Again please save us the "Unknown Purposes Defense" via "true love" by simply laying out the necessary and sufficient conditions for free will agents to understand 'true love.' You seem to know it all anyway, and that way you don't come off as if make it up on the spot.
22 Aug 06
Originally posted by DarfiusDo not hide behind a second-rate children's author. Tell us the necessary and sufficient conditions.
If you were even shallowly aware of Christian apologetics, you would know that I haven't 'made it up on the spot'. I've already recommended Mere Christianity to you. Lewis goes into great detail on the subject, and much more eloquently than I ever could.
22 Aug 06
Originally posted by DarfiusSuppose that there are N free will beings. Suppose that 1 of them choose God. Can the other N-1 beings choose God?
Even with the angel example, some free will beings CHOSE to rebel agaisnt God. So if you skeptics wish to claim that it's possible to have a world with free will and 100% of those beings choose God, then please explain how.
Suppose that 2 of them choose God. Can the other N-2 beings choose God?
...
Suppose that N-1 of them choose God. Can the last one choose God?
It seems that you are saying that in this last case, the answer is NO. If that's true, how can you say that the Nth being has free will?
How many of them can choose God before it becomes impossible for the rest to choose God?
22 Aug 06
1 edit
Originally posted by DarfiusYou talk about natural forces, but the exact time and location at which e.g. all earthquakes would occur was KNOWN by your god at the moment of creation. In that sense, surely they were chosen? They are an unknown quantity only to us.
I gave reasons why it could be logically impossible. Misfortune at least is bound to happen in a world where there is free will and natural forces (weather, earthquakes, etc.)
22 Aug 06
Originally posted by AThousandYoungOooh symbols! LOL
Suppose that there are N free will beings. Suppose that 1 of them choose God. Can the other N-1 beings choose God?
Suppose that 2 of them choose God. Can the other N-2 beings choose God?
...
Suppose that N-1 of them choose God. Can the last one choose God?
It seems that you are saying that in this last case, the answer is NO. If that's tru ...[text shortened]... ll?
How many of them can choose God before it becomes impossible for the rest to choose God?
22 Aug 06
Originally posted by telerionSecond rate? Lewis is a giant in the field of 20th century literature. Maybe you should stick to clogging your posts with probability symbols, as your ignorance in most everything else is beginning to show.
Do not hide behind a second-rate children's author. Tell us the necessary and sufficient conditions.
Mere Christianity has been called a top tier apologetical work by both Christians and skeptics alike since its publication. It is not fiction, and it is not for children. It's also not that expensive. I highly suggest you pick it up and stop repeating your absurd request that I explain all Christianity to you personally before you believe.
22 Aug 06
Originally posted by DarfiusLewis is not taken seriously by professional philosophers.
Second rate? Lewis is a giant in the field of 20th century literature. Maybe you should stick to clogging your posts with probability symbols, as your ignorance in most everything else is beginning to show.
Mere Christianity has been called a top tier apologetical work by both Christians and skeptics alike since its publication. It is not fiction, and ...[text shortened]... ating your absurd request that I explain all Christianity to you personally before you believe.
22 Aug 06
Originally posted by dottewellNatural forces occur everywhere on the face of the planet. If you were trying to suggest that God could have populated people only where such did not occur, then it was a poor suggestion.
You talk about natural forces, but the exact time and location at which e.g. all earthquakes would occur was KNOWN by your god at the moment of creation. In that sense, surely they were chosen? They are an unknown quantity only to us.
22 Aug 06
Originally posted by AThousandYoungIt is not a matter of a quota being filled. A plethora of extenuating circumstances (I mentioned a few examples) must be considered. It's not simply a matter of the creatures being created and promptly escorted to a poll where they can select A. God or B. No God.
Suppose that there are N free will beings. Suppose that 1 of them choose God. Can the other N-1 beings choose God?
Suppose that 2 of them choose God. Can the other N-2 beings choose God?
...
Suppose that N-1 of them choose God. Can the last one choose God?
It seems that you are saying that in this last case, the answer is NO. If that's tru ...[text shortened]... ll?
How many of them can choose God before it becomes impossible for the rest to choose God?
22 Aug 06
Originally posted by DarfiusFree willed beings can choose something other than A. God or B. No God? Is that what you're saying?
It is not a matter of a quota being filled. A plethora of extenuating circumstances (I mentioned a few examples) must be considered. It's not simply a matter of the creatures being created and promptly escorted to a poll where they can select A. God or B. No God.
22 Aug 06
1 edit
Originally posted by DarfiusNo; my point was only that natural forces are not an "unknown quantity" to the omniscient creator of the natural world.
Natural forces occur everywhere on the face of the planet. If you were trying to suggest that God could have populated people only where such did not occur, then it was a poor suggestion.
God certainly could have created people who CHOSE, freely, to live in areas that would never have been affected by earthquakes. He could equally have created a world that never experienced earthquakes at all.
There are no unknown factors as far as god is concerned. He decided exactly how the world would be - at each and every moment in time - at the instant of creation. He knew exactly what each and every human being in history would choose to do IF he created the world as it actually is. And he went ahead anyway.
22 Aug 06
Originally posted by dottewellSaid in complete ignorance:
Lewis is not taken seriously by professional philosophers.
"In concluding this discussion, I would first like to urge anyone who is not familiar with the works of C.S. Lewis to take the time to become acquainted with him." - Todd Kappelman M.A. in philosophy
Philosophers like William Lane Craig and Alvin Platinga view C.S. Lewis as a solid philosopher as well. Frankly, I don't think you have any support for the claim.
22 Aug 06
Originally posted by DarfiusWell, I have an MPhil in philosophy from Cambridge, and a large number of my friends are academic philosophers.
Said in complete ignorance:
"In concluding this discussion, I would first like to urge anyone who is not familiar with the works of C.S. Lewis to take the time to become acquainted with him." - Todd Kappelman M.A. in philosophy
Philosophers like William Lane Craig and Alvin Platinga view C.S. Lewis as a solid philosopher as well. Frankly, I don't think you have any support for the claim.
But if Todd says otherwise, I guess...