In the beginning

@kellyjay said
No takers, no one has a reason for why they believe what they do, and don't even want to admit what they think?

Nope, I've talked about this many times. Not going through the associated drama again.

@suzianne said
Nope, I've talked about this many times. Not going through the associated drama again.

"Drama"?

What happened "many times"?

@FMF

I think you should examine more closely what Ghost of a Duke believes and not engage in this sophistry.

I think you should assume he is perfectly capable of speaking for himself should he want to point out my misunderstanding. Stop signalling and expecting everyone to line up behind your coattail when I voice my thought.

What are you, his girl scout den mother?

@FMF

What do you mean by "a reason"?

Talking about sophistry.

@sonship said
@FMF

What do you mean by "a reason"?

Talking about sophistry.

I clearly explained what I meant by that question and why I thought it was important in this context. Perhaps you don't know what sophistry is.

@sonship said
@FMF

I think you should examine more closely what Ghost of a Duke believes and not engage in this sophistry.

I think you should assume he is perfectly capable of speaking for himself should he want to point out my misunderstanding. Stop signalling and expecting everyone to line up behind your coattail when I voice my thought.

What are you, his girl scout den mother?

Of course, Ghost of a Duke is capable of speaking for himself. That's irrelevant. I am calling you out for your gimmicky dishonesty. You either don't know what his belief is and are being dishonest about supposedly having examined it. Or you do know what it is and are being dishonest about supposedly having examined it.

@kellyjay said
Genesis 1 English Standard Version (ESV)
In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.

I've asked this before.
Some believe in a steady state universe.
Some believe the universe created itself out of nothing.
Some believe in this that or the other things.

With cause (defend your belief) can anyone come up with a reason for everything?

Let their be light = Big Bang

Let the water bring forth life = Cambrian Explosion.

There is nothing gradual about evolution/creation. That is the big myth.

@FMF

Perhaps you don't know what sophistry is.

Fake sophistication. You're a master of it around here.

@FMF

You either don't know what his belief is

Maybe I don't remember.
If he can put out " Name one person " stimulating talk,
I can be as provocative and say "I think you are one person" stimulating talk.

If he wants to correct my impression that's his business.

And of sophistry and fony sophistication, you've been a top example on this Forum.

You're inching towards deism, unless you are just pretending. So your dog in the fight is that the universe did not come from itself but from a deistic Creator.

Unless that was just a fad for a day with you.

@Ghost-of-a-Duke

Please specify one person here who believes the universe created itself out of nothing.

I think you may be one person who believes that - the universe created itself perpetually from an infinite regress out of nothing else.

Besides the eternal universe itself explain am I not right to think you are saying - it came out of NOTHING as in NOTHING other than itself.

Ie. It came out of nothing. It is itself the thing from which it came from always. Self caused. Nothing other or besides it is its cause.

Explain my misreading of your belief if I misread you.

@sonship said
@FMF

Perhaps you don't know what sophistry is.

Fake sophistication. You're a master of it around here.

Sophistry is "the use of fallacious arguments, especially with the intention of deceiving".

@sonship said
@FMF

You either don't know what his belief is

Maybe I don't remember.

Why pretend that you do?

@sonship said
@Ghost-of-a-Duke

Please specify one person here who believes the universe created itself out of nothing.

I think you do when what you propose is closely examined.

Okay sonship, closely examine what I propose (something I have told you at least 3 times).

'I propose that the universe has always existed, in one form or another.'


Now, having closely examined that sonship, and reading that I have discounted 'any' creation event, do you stand by your statement that I actually believe the universe created itself out of nothing? If not, kindly retract your false assessment of what I believe.

@ghost-of-a-duke said
Please specify one person here who believes the universe created itself out of nothing.

Nudge for Kelly.

Either identify one person who has ever expressed such a view, or like sonship resign such silly statements to the bin. I know it is a handy put down for non-subscribers to your 'God did it' belief, but it really is disingenuous when no one has claimed the universe created itself out of nothing.

@Ghost-of-a-Duke

'I propose that the universe has always existed, in one form or another.'

Now, having closely examined that sonship, and reading that I have discounted 'any' creation event, do you stand by your statement that I actually believe the universe created itself out of nothing? If not, kindly retract your false assessment of what I believe.

The universe has always existed in SOME form, you say.
Okay, I got that.

The FORM that the universe exists in RIGHT NOW, has it ALWAYS been in that FORM ?

If not, can we assume you are saying the present FORM of the universe was once NOT and came into being at some point?

Am I right ?

If so then was the coming into being of the present FORM from the past FORM a creation event of the present FORM caused by the past FORM?