In the beginning

@kellyjay said
In the proper order. 🙂

Go Cubs!

@whodey said
Go Cubs!

Baseball season is almost here 😀 Go Cubs Go!!

@bigdoggproblem said
No problem, Vern.

As in Vern Stephens? (I had to google him).

I almost called you Babe, but didn't want any confusion.

@ghost-of-a-duke said
As in Vern Stephens? (I had to google him).

I almost called you Babe, but didn't want any confusion.

I just threw a name out. But if I'm Joe Buck, I suppose you could be Tim McCarver.

@bigdoggproblem said
I just threw a name out. But if I'm Joe Buck, I suppose you could be Tim McCarver.

I was going for DiMaggio.

@kellyjay said
You brought up "what science says" so tell me, what you do you hear, know, believe that goes to the topic.

"Science" is a pretty large vat of information. Are you sure you wanna gargle all that at once?

You can barely handle evolution. And forget about cosmology. Or paleontology. Or physics.

Or... or... or...

@kellyjay said
Like all things we can only comprehend some, and what I still don't see you saying is how a universe could eternally expand, have sunlight eternally, have all the things we see today and be all the things we see today? If it took an eternity of time to even reach this point? Why would this point even be here if there was endless time before now?

Hey, it's only 14 billion years. A long time, sure, but nowhere near eternity.

And that's only this "go round", if I'm reading Ghost accurately.

Endless time? Well, only the last 14 billion years really counts. There is no way to see past that.

I think there could be a "Big Bounce", but we don't even know yet if there is enough mass to cause the universe to collapse on itself due to gravity or not. But we do have the evidence of this time, at least. I think there's no "bounce" but others are free to hypothesize.

Frankly, I don't even know why Christians continue to argue with atheists over this. We have all the current evidence to support the cosmological model of the universe, and, even with a Creator, I don't see why it couldn't have happened exactly that way. All the YEC people out there simply do not give God enough credit. They all think God had to be a stage magician, "poofing" things into existence, because according to them, that's what he said happened, and so it had to be exactly that way. (Reference RJHinds and all the arguments I had with him over this.) I say He created through natural processes, because "nature" is simply another aspect of the Creator God. Who really cares if it took 14 billion years to make the universe? What is time to God?

Would you create an intelligent species and leave all your tools and sawdust and stuff laying around so that your creation could figure it out? That would be careless, especially considering the value he places on Free Will. Because of this one thing, we will NEVER find any "proof" of God. Not until the end times, anyway, when all will see and all will know. No, it all has to be seen as a natural process. And guess what? It IS seen that way, because that's what it was. Congrats, humans! You've figured out how it was done. If only you could figure out WHY. Some already have.

@suzianne said
"Science" is a pretty large vat of information. Are you sure you wanna gargle all that at once?

You can barely handle evolution. And forget about cosmology. Or paleontology. Or physics.

Or... or... or...

Up to you, you made the claim and now you want to insult me to avoid backing it up.

@suzianne said
Hey, it's only 14 billion years. A long time, sure, but nowhere near eternity.

And that's only this "go round", if I'm reading Ghost accurately.

Endless time? Well, only the last 14 billion years really counts. There is no way to see past that.

I think there could be a "Big Bounce", but we don't even know yet if there is enough mass to cause the universe t ...[text shortened]... eator God. Who really cares if it took 14 billion years to make the universe? What is time to God?

'And that's only this "go round", if I'm reading Ghost accurately.'


You are.

@kellyjay said
Up to you, you made the claim and now you want to insult me to avoid backing it up.

I don't have to. It's all out there, just crack open a book, or two, or three.

Or for the most up-to-date info, there is a great big Internet out there. Physician, teach thyself.

@suzianne said
Hey, it's only 14 billion years. A long time, sure, but nowhere near eternity.

And that's only this "go round", if I'm reading Ghost accurately.

Endless time? Well, only the last 14 billion years really counts. There is no way to see past that.

I think there could be a "Big Bounce", but we don't even know yet if there is enough mass to cause the universe t ...[text shortened]... eator God. Who really cares if it took 14 billion years to make the universe? What is time to God?

Endless time means to me, there would be an eternity before this moment, so how would we ever get to this moment?

With respect to 14 billion years, that is true only if we are making a lot of correct assumptions. There are a lot of assumptions there, and no way to know for sure, but if you think you know for sure you are a true believer.

What supports a big bounce? They used to think the universe had a beginning, it changed to it was eternal, now we are back to it had a beginning. The debate is what caused it, did it cause itself, did something outside cause it? With the how and whys of that unknown, how would we really know what happen 14 billion years ago?

I have been getting asked a lot of questions about time, it isn't a big deal mainly because no one can know! What we can know is what is in this material universe and how it behaves, what causes something to happen and what causes other things. This is where real debates with real information can happen, so the two big dodges revolve around God did it, or it happen a long time ago.

All explanations that can not be shown wrong right away, we can only look at the universe and see which of them have the best explanations? Not the simplest, but the best, failing to see the complexity in anything could cause unreasonable explanations to be made for simplicity sake, not truthfulness.

Why do we think, why do we see, what brought everything into being? Can natural material world just cause these things, or do we need miracles a mind controlling things?

@suzianne said
I don't have to. It's all out there, just crack open a book, or two, or three.

Or for the most up-to-date info, there is a great big Internet out there. Physician, teach thyself.

Well the books are out there, and I have several. You have come to the place where all you have to say is your wrong go read a book, that is as good as it gets, okay, moving on.

@kellyjay said
Endless time means to me, there would be an eternity before this moment, so how would we ever get to this moment?

There will also be an eternity 'after' this moment Kelly.

@ghost-of-a-duke said
There will also be an eternity 'after' this moment Kelly.

One doesn't do away with the other.
If there is endless time before now, how is now here?

@kellyjay said
One doesn't do away with the other.
If there is endless time before now, how is now here?

Eternity is comprised of endless moments that come and go. You seem to view an eternal universe as static in time. I don't.