Intelligent? Design

Originally posted by sonhouse
But it seems you still cling to the lower number as being more possible, are you sure you have not been influenced by the who begat who analysis saying the universe and Earth is 6000 years old? I get mixed messages from you, the universe could be 14 bil old or it could be 6 thou old, you don't care. Are you not interested enough in the sciences behind dating to see for yourself, sniff into the lit?

I do believe God is real so I do think it is possible, but do I know it to be true, no.
The questions I believe are important we have gone over and over, where did it all come
from. From the bits and pieces I know about what it takes to get a design off the ground
that requires a lot of complexity to function, I resist the notion that life is here by a grand
accident. The fact that the whole universe has to be setup for life not just this little
planet also makes me think, there is more in the realm of evidence for God than not. I
used to wonder why more people didn't see it, but now I think they don't want too. To
admit design would be a life altering acceptance forcing a complete change of world views.

I have had a few touches with what we could call theoretical dating methods where we
got processors to be stressed as if they were in use for years. The result allowed us to
simulate how long they would remain within the specs after people bought them and
used them normally. Which for me like a lot of things that had to do with dating showed
me there are typically more than one way to skin a cat, or get results that could come
about by just normal wear.

With respect to the time argument it doesn't matter if the earth is billions or thousands of
years old, the answer to that would be meaningful if thousands, but even billions or
millions doesn't alter my views on anything. So why worry about something no one can
prove one way or another?

Originally posted by KellyJay
I do believe God is real so I do think it is possible, but do I know it to be true, no.
The questions I believe are important we have gone over and over, where did it all come
from. From the bits and pieces I know about what it takes to get a design off the ground
that requires a lot of complexity to function, I resist the notion that life is here by a g ...[text shortened]... t alter my views on anything. So why worry about something no one can
prove one way or another?

You say on the one hand it makes no dif if Earth is 6K or 5bil years old but it still seems to me you lean towards 6K even though there is not a word in scripture about the age of Earth.

BTW, here is some latest work on figuring out the advent of first life, that happy accident you talk about:

http://www.sciencealert.com/scientists-might-have-discovered-what-allowed-life-to-evolve

Originally posted by sonhouse
You say on the one hand it makes no dif if Earth is 6K or 5bil years old but it still seems to me you lean towards 6K even though there is not a word in scripture about the age of Earth.

BTW, here is some latest work on figuring out the advent of first life, that happy accident you talk about:

http://www.sciencealert.com/scientists-might-have-discovered-what-allowed-life-to-evolve

"We might finally know ..."

Between you and me, I think life was designed, with these guys they will be changing ideas
till it is all said and done to come up with a another reason it could happen without a plan,
purpose, and design.

Originally posted by sonhouse
You say on the one hand it makes no dif if Earth is 6K or 5bil years old but it still seems to me you lean towards 6K even though there is not a word in scripture about the age of Earth.

BTW, here is some latest work on figuring out the advent of first life, that happy accident you talk about:

http://www.sciencealert.com/scientists-might-have-discovered-what-allowed-life-to-evolve

It doesn't make a difference one way or another with respect to time. When I think about
God, who isn't limited to "now" as we are, whose very presence is so much greater then
the universe itself, who can see all things, at the same time, from beginning to end, who
is all powerful, who never sleeps, who totally focuses on the smallest to the largest things
in the universe all at once. His ability to do things and His reasoning would be so much
greater than our own, and the things He is capable of doing, would also be so much
greater than we can imagine.

When I think about Him, He could create a fully functional universe in a very small amount
of time. He could also restart something already here, and I doubt we could work it out
what He did and why. As I thought we agreed earlier, we are not that smart.

Originally posted by KellyJay
It doesn't make a difference one way or another with respect to time. When I think about
God, who isn't limited to "now" as we are, whose very presence is so much greater then
the universe itself, who can see all things, at the same time, from beginning to end, who
is all powerful, who never sleeps, who totally focuses on the smallest to the largest thin ...[text shortened]... e could work it out
what He did and why. As I thought we agreed earlier, we are not that smart.

But an omniscient god like you say exists would have no need of tests, like the 'apple' or Ab asked to kill his son to prove loyalty and so forth. Such a god would have known the outcome of such a test of loyalty before it designed and built the universe so there would be no need for such a test.

However, such tests are needed by humans and so made their way into biblical scripture as if a god said those things. I say it was all man made, no god needed to do the inspiration for the biblical verses. My evidence, the rest of the religious universe having stories just as powerful seeming but far removed from the Abrahamic religions, like Budhhism or Taoism, or Hindu, or jayne, give talented writers a place to write and they will come up with pithy stories and that has been going on for ten thousand years.

Like I said, the 7 day creation tale was copped from an even older Egyptian 7 day creation tale but neither was written or inspired by a real god.

I think you would admit the apanashads were not written by a god but those folks certainly do, just as they don't think the Abrahamic texts were written or inspired by a god by YOU do.

Can't you see the dichotomy here? All these religions claiming to be inspired by a god and yet at odds with one another to the point of religious wars.

My position is NONE were inspired by a god since an all knowing god would never make religions at each others throats and to just stick in some devil strawman, and that devil is responsible for all those other religions while OUR REAL GOD is responsible for ours and ours alone.

Why do you think it is ALL those religions think just like that? Could it possibly be because a god would never do that?

I cannot say there is no god, but I can say a god would never pit one person against another based on religion.

I say they are all 100% of ALL religions are man made.

Originally posted by sonhouse
But an omniscient god like you say exists would have no need of tests, like the 'apple' or Ab asked to kill his son to prove loyalty and so forth. Such a god would have known the outcome of such a test of loyalty before it designed and built the universe so there would be no need for such a test.

However, such tests are needed by humans and so made thei ...[text shortened]... on against another based on religion.

I say they are all 100% of ALL religions are man made.

I agree with you on God's need for tests. I don't believe all that is going on is for God, but
instead it is for everyone else, we are called to be witnesses, there is going to be a day of
judgment. Now why do that if as you say God could simply just lower the boom on
anyone who would or could argue? So how would the angels who did rebel, know if what
they did was really evil, or was it God's personal taste that did them in? How would any
man being convicted of anything know it was a just judgment? Judgment day must plainly
lay out everyone for everyone to see so we know it is not just God's personal taste why
anything is called wrong, and those being condemn are being condemn justly.

I believe (This is all my opinion) it is for all of God's creation sake. We will see all that
was said and done and God's judgment on these things. According to scripture when this
occurs no one is going to dispute God, we will for ourselves see the reasoning behind
each judgment to know if it was just or not. Not being blinded by the unknown all things
will be made clear.

Originally posted by sonhouse
But an omniscient god like you say exists would have no need of tests, like the 'apple' or Ab asked to kill his son to prove loyalty and so forth. Such a god would have known the outcome of such a test of loyalty before it designed and built the universe so there would be no need for such a test.

However, such tests are needed by humans and so made thei ...[text shortened]... on against another based on religion.

I say they are all 100% of ALL religions are man made.

Do not forget the other side, the devil does influence man. We are in a world where we all
make choices, and simply because a subject is muddled as in *did God really say that*
what is true and just will always be true and just. We can lay a hold of anger and rage and
let that be our driving force in our lives, we can selfish to the nth degree, we can hold
others to different standards than the ones we live by and our lives and what we do with
them shows us how broken we are.

As God asks us to come to Him, Satan is working over time to keep us apart. There was
a division between man and God. In the OT temple, it was symbolized with a curtain. It
kept the sinful man away from God's Holy place, the day Jesus died, it was ripped from
the top to the bottom showing us, *again my opinion* not only had what kept us apart from
God was gone it was done by God for us, top to bottom, Heaven to earth.

There are a lot of stories in man's history, many different ones about creation, all manner
of religions, all revolve around the same thing, did God really? I submit to you there is only
ONE who can sort out the good from the bad, the truth from the fiction, the just from the
unjust and it isn't any man, woman, or child walking the earth, but God Himself.

God may choose to use people to make a point, but it still has to be God. From my point
of view if I talk you into it another can talk you out of it. I look at the NT testament stories
about those that killed Jesus and many of His followers even in the face of divine acts of
God, how blind were they? The one that stands out the most for me is when Jesus raised
Lazarus from the dead, they not only plotted to kill Jesus but Lazarus as well. The people
who did that were trained in religion and yet missed God's actions! So one of my daily
prayers is that God gives me eyes to see the truth and not let my own desires twist it
when it is right in front of me. I know I can be a hard headed lame brain and miss what
is right in front of me! 🙂 I'm quite sure I'll get no argument on this confession here too!

Originally posted by KellyJay
Do not forget the other side, the devil does influence man. We are in a world where we all
make choices, and simply because a subject is muddled as in *did God really say that*
what is true and just will always be true and just. We can lay a hold of anger and rage and
let that be our driving force in our lives, we can selfish to the nth degree, we can ho ...[text shortened]... at
is right in front of me! 🙂 I'm quite sure I'll get no argument on this confession here too!

My position is no god would design religions in such a way as to demand religious warfare.

Such a god would be no friend of mine and I would fight it to my dying day.

But I don't think such gods exist anyway so it doesn't matter to me one way or the other.
Any god's out there are strictly hands off, and we will live or die on our own petards, like what we are doing right now is to try to kill of as many humans as possible in our greed to drill more and more oil and turn it into CO2 to choke up the atmosphere and make it too hot to have glaciers and ice packs and all that ice running up the depth of the oceans which is killing villages as we speak, some of them too close to the ocean, now flooded.

That is only the beginning and there will be no god coming down to fix our boo boo's and make us happy. We will win together or starve together. It's up to us, we either fix it or ruin it further. My guess is we will figure out just a tad too late to keep the oceans from rising and covering up Florida and other low lying islands around the world, NYC gone bye bye, New Orleans, 10 feet underwater. Unless we ourselves fix it, we have no god that will do it for us.

Originally posted by sonhouse
My position is no god would design religions in such a way as to demand religious warfare.

Such a god would be no friend of mine and I would fight it to my dying day.

But I don't think such gods exist anyway so it doesn't matter to me one way or the other.
Any god's out there are strictly hands off, and we will live or die on our own petards, like wh ...[text shortened]... Orleans, 10 feet underwater. Unless we ourselves fix it, we have no god that will do it for us.

Well I guess we disagree, for me it makes sense that if we can be judged we have to have
the ability to choose what we desire even if it is to reject the truth, than the debates and
arguments can begin. The ability to choose wrong can only be shown wrong when the
results give us exactly what the results really are. You steal, you rob someone of what
they have and it causes them to suffer during the loss even if it is horrendous.

Giving us the foundational views of how we are to act towards God and man would limit
the pain and suffering we all go through. it is no different than driving by the rules of the
road, as long as everyone is doing we stand a chance of far less traffic accidents than
when some are not. Even with all doing everything right, still things can go wrong for us,
that is just life.

Fixing our Bo Bo's is part of living with God, He isn't out to make our lives a mess, His
plans for us are for our own good. So having Him in our lives makes the ins and outs we
go through in this life something we can deal with even in the very dark times here. He
goes through it all with us, and is preparing a place for us afterwards too. This also keeps
things in proper perspective, what is important isn't always getting money or things since
we do not take those with us when we leave this life.

God did design a brain and made it useful, so doing what needs done is part of our lives,
and even there effort is required on our part. We are not some brainless virus or germ
that only exists we do make choices.

Originally posted by KellyJay
It doesn't make a difference one way or another with respect to time. When I think about
God, who isn't limited to "now" as we are, whose very presence is so much greater then
the universe itself, who can see all things, at the same time, from beginning to end, who
is all powerful, who never sleeps, who totally focuses on the smallest to the largest thin ...[text shortened]... e could work it out
what He did and why. As I thought we agreed earlier, we are not that smart.

What an incredibly simplistic view of god you have there. Almost childlike, but then again so is Trump.

My main problem with it? It's not wholistic. It makes god as separated from man, which is where we always get off on the wrong foot about trying to define "Him".

Originally posted by sonhouse
But an omniscient god like you say exists would have no need of tests, like the 'apple' or Ab asked to kill his son to prove loyalty and so forth. Such a god would have known the outcome of such a test of loyalty before it designed and built the universe so there would be no need for such a test.

However, such tests are needed by humans and so made thei ...[text shortened]... on against another based on religion.

I say they are all 100% of ALL religions are man made.

Upanishads.

Thought to be the oldest of all the "bibles". Also thought to have inspired pretty much every religion that came after

Originally posted by karoly aczel
What an incredibly simplistic view of god you have there. Almost childlike, but then again so is Trump.

My main problem with it? It's not wholistic. It makes god as separated from man, which is where we always get off on the wrong foot about trying to define "Him".

Trump?

Originally posted by karoly aczel
Upanishads.

Thought to be the oldest of all the "bibles". Also thought to have inspired pretty much every religion that came after

Are there godly tests for mankind in the Upanishads? Like the ones in the bible, like Ab getting the test from 'god' to kill his own son as a test of loyalty?

Do you see what I mean when I say such tests by an omniscient god would be not needed since it would already know the outcome of any test proposed by such a god.

Originally posted by karoly aczel
What an incredibly simplistic view of god you have there. Almost childlike, but then again so is Trump.

My main problem with it? It's not wholistic. It makes god as separated from man, which is where we always get off on the wrong foot about trying to define "Him".

My main problem with it? It's not wholistic. It makes god as separated from man, which is where we always get off on the wrong foot about trying to define "Him".

What does this mean to you?

"He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit." (1 Cor. 6:17)

Doesn't that start with an understanding that you have here MAN's spirit, and you have there God's Spirit. And when man is "joined to the Lord" the two spirits become ONE united, mingled and blended spirit.

That's what it means. Now this may be sorely neglected by degraded Christianity.
But that is not the fault of the New Testament. And we don't have to follow the example of neglect but follow the example of those giving heed to this union of God and man.

Originally posted by sonship

My main problem with it? It's not wholistic. It makes god as separated from man, which is where we always get off on the wrong foot about trying to define "Him".

What does this mean to you?

[b] "He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit." (1 Cor. 6:17)

Doesn't that start with an understanding that you have h ...[text shortened]... the example of neglect but follow the example of those giving heed to this union of God and man.[/b]

What it means to me is these are words written by men with no help from a god, but instead, just another religion growing a congregation to have a power center which leads to good things happening for the leaders, like the best of everything, whatever is available at the time of the start of these religions, in that case, maybe the best camels, the best tents, the best available food, the best slaves, the best wives and so forth. THAT is the motivation for starting religions. Works every time. Look at the bogus "religion' of Scientology. Worked wonders for them, it's a multi billion dollar business now.