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Originally posted by 667joeWhy do you say that? Intelligent design does not insist the design is something you have to like.
Clearly anyone who believes in intelligent design has never suffered from prostate problems!
Is this a philosophical complaint like "Why would there be an intelligent design of prostate cancer?" ?
A design that you could supposedly improve upon, can still be an intelligent one.
Wrong?
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When I was a computer programming student (back when dinosaurs walked the earth), I remember being fascinated by what the IBM operating system MVS could do.
If the operating system detected that something was not going right with some program, it could issue something called a higher priority interrupt. The higher priority interrupt was some kind of suspension of the normal process in order to run some kind of emergency maintenance of something as the next group of instructions beside the ongoing program.
I thought of it as like an ambulance which making emergency noise halted traffic, called for the normal flow of traffic to go off to the side and allow a special vehicle to pass through.
In the bigger picture of human existence, could there be an intelligent interruption of the normal flow in order to make a higher priority alarm, for SOME intelligent reason ?
The terrible prostate cancer could be such an interruption of the normal flow. It could be because a conceivable greater danger needs to be arrested, or maintenanced, or at least brought to the attention of the person with the prostate cancer.
Is it inconceivably that something more of a damage could be being ignored so that lesser functions must be interrupted by a designed higher priority alarm ?
Maybe a lesser example might be helpful.
When everything is ok with the body, a man may not feel anything.
When a headache comes, it signals that something is wrong somewhere.
Suppose we're not just a physical body.
Suppose we have other dimensions which need maintenance and health as well.
Would you like to be without an alarm that something somewhere may not be right with you ?
Wouldn't it be better to be made aware that something was wrong by means of some higher priority interruption in the normal flow of life?
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Originally posted by 667joeYou could answer the question and we could take it from that point.
So you are saying that god's work is not the best and can be improved upon?
Can a design which you think you could improve upon STILL be an intelligent one ?
Yea.
Nay!
I would say, Yes.
Then we could take it from there about my theology.
What do you say?
Yes, something could be intelligently designed yet I could suggest an " improvement " according to my sense of priorities, perhaps.
Prostate cancer is bad enough. I, however, had benign prostate hyperplasia in mind. The prostate surrounds the tube through which urine must flow. As the prostate enlarges (which is does in a majority of men), it squeezes the tube through which the urine flows making it harder to urinate. The enlarging prostate also pushes on the bladder causing frequent urges to urinate even though the bladder is not full, An intelligent designer would have made a prostate that does not enlarge, or at least placed it off to the side so it would not squeeze the urinary tube and push on the bladder. If god designed the prostate, his design clearly flunks! (Evolution explains the situation much better than intelligent design!)
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Originally posted by 667joeYou obviously missed my point entirely. Or you did not miss it but don't believe it could be possible about an intelligent higher priority interruption of the normal flow of human processes.
Prostate cancer is bad enough. I, however, had benign prostate hyperplasia in mind. The prostate surrounds the tube through which urine must flow. As the prostate enlarges (which is does in a majority of men), it squeezes the tube through which the urine flows making it harder to urinate. The enlarging prostate also pushes on the bladder causing frequen ...[text shortened]... s design clearly flunks! (Evolution explains the situation much better than intelligent design!)
The details of how bad prostate cancer is don't effect this that much.
Let's take physical DEATH itself. Let's say God should have been more intelligent to allow DEATH to occur to people. It is totally an interruption of the normal flow of life. Or if it is arguable that it is, it is safe to say the majority of human beings don't really WELCOME the prospect of their DEATH coming upon them.
So what's up with this terrible design flaw of physical death in human beings?
Is it possible that it is useful to ALARM us that something even of more importance is wrong ? It could be the greatest possible interruption.
But before this final interruption of that drastic level, there might be lesser interruptions which go off as alarms. These are like the calling cards of the final agent notifying us that the final agent is on the way.
Just suppose in reaction to seeking medical help for prostate cancer, which certainly is not forbidden, a man does an additional thing. Suppose in addition to paying the doctor a visit, he goes to the privacy of his bedroom and prays to God:
" Lord God. Okay. I have this prostate cancer. I don't like it. But Lord God, You have my attention now.
Okay, Lord Jesus...You have my attention. What would you have me to know out of this experience ? Lord Jesus, I ask you that in the next week you simply show me ONE concrete thing you wish me to reap from this experience of having prostate cancer.
Lord Jesus. I stop my busy ignoring of God and turn to give You my attention in this situation today. One specific matter Lord. Just show me ONE specific matter in which You want my cooperation or attention to You. Thankyou Lord Jesus. Amen."
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Originally posted by 667joeOn what basis is it wrong to be cruel and sadistic ?
Sounds like god is cruel and sadistic!
Is it just your personal preference one should not be?
Sounds like you have to steal concepts from a theistic worldview in order to use it to condemn God.
You have to sit on His lap in order to be able to reach His face to slap it.
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Originally posted by 667joeOn what basis do you determine who is worthy of adoration?
Your position is that god designed things to fail and cause pain and suffering. Sounds like a cruel god certainly not worthy of adoration!
Why are the qualities you enumerate the qualities which are worthy of adoration?
Is this just your personal preference like that for, say, one rock band over another rock band ?
It seems you have to steal your concepts from a theistic worldview in order to have a weapon to swing against God.
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A man was on his way to the emergency hospital with his child. The child was in the back seat. Every 30 to 50 seconds the driving father would reach back and shake the child so that the child would not fall asleep.
It was an forty-five minute ride to the nearest emergency hospital. The child wanted only to sleep. The child may have thought is was cruel to be constantly woken up just before falling into deep slumber.
The father constantly gave a shake to the child until he reached the emergency room.
When I heard this story I was told that the sickness the child had called for the child to by all means remain AWAKE until medical attention could be administered. Whatever seizure of illness had come upon the child, if it was to go to sleep, death would be the result.
Appearances are not always as they seem. It was the love and knowledge and wisdom of the parent that motivated him to uncomfortably shake the child to prevent sleep and subsequently death. That is until there was arrival to the emergency room.
This illustration is for the purpose of demonstrating that temporary intervention which seems mean may in fact be an action out of wisdom and love.
Originally posted by 667joeIt's a fallen world my man, God created it perfect we messed it up. We have been in a decline mainly because of our choices without God.
Your position is that god designed things to fail and cause pain and suffering. Sounds like a cruel god certainly not worthy of adoration!
How about this design... the whole male reproductive system and how it all functions together, aside from problems that occur later in life. Sorry you are having problems, I know it is difficult.
